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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: [FL] Disney Transport TMC RTS replacement? |
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As some have noticed, Disney Transport's TMC RTS buses are now approaching replacement age. They were delivered from 1988-1994. The original GMC RTS fleet I believe has been retired and replaced by the Gillig Advantage. Some used and rebuilt RTS buses were acquired in 1998.
ABQ RIDE has already started to retire their TMC RTS buses, and is replacing them with New Flyer DE40LFRs. While one of ABQ RIDE's main goals was to go 100% wheelchair accessible, they are still well beyond their useful lives.
I was wondering, what should Disney Transport replace the TMCs with? I know that Disney's business model is to make money, not spend it. Because of that, ordering CNG buses would not make any sense, as they cost more to operate. However, I have been wondering whether they should order diesel-electric hybrids. Diesel-electric hybrids have a higher purchase price than diesel or CNG buses, however, they are cheaper to operate in the long run. This seems to totally make sense for a company who is willing to save money. I think the New Flyer DE40LFR with frameless windows would look excellent in Disney colors. |
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RailBus63 Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Given that Disney Transport already operates Gillig low-floor buses, I would expect they would purchase more of these buses if they are happy with the current batch. I've also read that the Orion demonstrator has made at least one visit to the Magic Kingdom. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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RailBus63 wrote: | Given that Disney Transport already operates Gillig low-floor buses, I would expect they would purchase more of these buses if they are happy with the current batch. I've also read that the Orion demonstrator has made at least one visit to the Magic Kingdom. |
I don't think that brand loyalty is as important as it used to be. While it still exists with some transit authorities today (most notably AC Transit, who is loyal to Van Hool), most transit authorities go who whoever gives them the best deal.
As I stated, Disney is a company who is willing to make money, not spend it. If New Flyer gives them the best deal, then New Flyer would be the way to go. The reason why I am suggesting the DE40LFR is that while hybrid buses cost more to purchase than diesel or CNG buses, they have lower operating costs in the long run. BTW, if Disney Transport goes the diesel-electric hybrid route, they will get more attention in the media as well. |
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RailBus63 Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Brand loyalty seemed imortant to Disney until recently, though - they bought exclusively from GMC/TMC/Nova until the Gilligs arrived a few years ago. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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RailBus63 wrote: | Brand loyalty seemed imortant to Disney until recently, though - they bought exclusively from GMC/TMC/Nova until the Gilligs arrived a few years ago. |
Well, the separation in time between the last TMC RTSes and first Nova LFS buses was about six years. However, Disney Transport did buy some rebuilt RTSes in 1998. I think the Nova LFS order was just due to the fact that Nova gave them the best deal.
Speaking of brand loyalty, the same used to be true of ABQ RIDE (then known as SunTran). Except for a small order from Grumman in the 1970s, ABQ RIDE has been an exclusive GMC/TMC customer since at least the 1960s up until 1996 when the Neoplans were delivered. However, I have heard that ABQ RIDE did consider ordering 20 Novas in 2000 (one year before the Thomas SLF200s were delivered), however, that order was canceled. Even though since 2004 all of ABQ RIDE's orders have been for New Flyers, I wouldn't say they are a 100% loyal New Flyer customer, as they considered ordering Gilligs before selecting the DE40LFR.
For most transit authorities, brand just doesn't really matter much anymore. They go with whoever provides them them the lowest bids, assuming that the buses meet the specifications of whoever is ordering. I know there are a still few exceptions, however, the number of such transit authorities is dwindling. |
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Mr. Linsky BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 5071 Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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It's not as much 'brand loyalty' as it is 'one manufacturer - one set of parts!'.
Both the continuous training of mechanics on unfamiliar equipment and the stocking of parts from a number of different manufacturers can run into big dollars and lots of expensive storage space!
This principle was advocated by big fleet operators for years and it worked very well.
Brand loyalty plays an important part when it comes to relationships between a manufacturer and a good customer, and can give that customer an edge as far as special attention to their needs.
I know - because that's exactly how it worked at Green Line!
Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. Linsky wrote: | It's not as much 'brand loyalty' as it is 'one manufacturer - one set of parts!'.
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While it could make sense for Disney Transport to purchase more Gilligs, the best option would still be to go for the best deal. If your "one manufacturer one set of parts" was actually that important, both Disney Transport and ABQ RIDE would still probably be ordering RTSes from Millennium Transit today.
Okay, I may be biased because I prefer New Flyer over the others, however, if New Flyer meets Disney's bid requirements and underbids Gillig/Orion/NABI/Nova, then it makes sense to choose New Flyer.
Disney is willing to make money, not spend it, hence why they don't operate CNG buses. I don't think that the parts issue is as important as it used to be. If Disney wants to save even more money, they should go with diesel-electric hybrid buses. As I stated, diesel-electric hybrids are cheaper to operate in the long run, despite their higher purchase price. |
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RailBus63 Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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DE60LF wrote: | Disney is willing to make money, not spend it, hence why they don't operate CNG buses. I don't think that the parts issue is as important as it used to be. If Disney wants to save even more money, they should go with diesel-electric hybrid buses. As I stated, diesel-electric hybrids are cheaper to operate in the long run, despite their higher purchase price. |
Hybrid buses may have lower operating costs than CNG or diesel, but they are more expensive to own since the operating savings are not expected to offset the higher purchase price. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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RailBus63 wrote: | DE60LF wrote: | Disney is willing to make money, not spend it, hence why they don't operate CNG buses. I don't think that the parts issue is as important as it used to be. If Disney wants to save even more money, they should go with diesel-electric hybrid buses. As I stated, diesel-electric hybrids are cheaper to operate in the long run, despite their higher purchase price. |
Hybrid buses may have lower operating costs than CNG or diesel, but they are more expensive to own since the operating savings are not expected to offset the higher purchase price. |
So, besides emissions, why are TAs even purchasing hybrid buses then? ABQ RIDE has officially stated that the long term savings make up for their higher costs. If that weren't the case, then nobody would be purchasing hybrids. I don't think ABQ RIDE would lie. Also, in terms of diesel-electric hybrids vs CNG buses, CNG buses generally have higher maintenance costs and poor fuel economy even compared to regular diesel buses. |
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RTS_04
Joined: 26 Apr 2007 Posts: 66
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I don't think all the GMC's are "retired," per se. When I was down there last summer, the TMCs were the majority of RTS' in service, but I did see a number of GMCs running as crew shuttles. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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RTS_04 wrote: | FWIW, I don't think all the GMC's are "retired," per se. When I was down there last summer, the TMCs were the majority of RTS' in service, but I did see a number of GMCs running as crew shuttles. |
I think the rebuilt RTSes purchased in 1998 are GMCs, however, I don't know whether or not those are the buses that you saw. |
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Mr. Linsky BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 5071 Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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See complete Walt Disney World Transportation Company GMC/TMC RTS roster coming up on 'Bus Nostalgia' (as soon as I can make some sense out of it!).
As a preview, I will tell you that the only 102 inch jobs (2745 to 2780) were bought used in 1998 from Dayton Ohio, Miami Florida and Detroit Michigan.
They were a mixture of 1979, 1980 and 1981 models and were completely rebuilt in Disney's shops.
Photo borrowed for educational purposes only.
Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
1989 TMC Model T80-606 Fleet # 4753
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DNJ
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 3 Location: Lakeland,Florida
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: [FL] Disney Transport TMC RTS replacement? |
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DE60LF wrote: | As some have noticed, Disney Transport's TMC RTS buses are now approaching replacement age. They were delivered from 1988-1994. The original GMC RTS fleet I believe has been retired and replaced by the Gillig Advantage. Some used and rebuilt RTS buses were acquired in 1998.
I was wondering, what should Disney Transport replace the TMCs with? I know that Disney's business model is to make money, not spend it. Because of that, ordering CNG buses would not make any sense, as they cost more to operate. However, I have been wondering whether they should order diesel-electric hybrids. Diesel-electric hybrids have a higher purchase price than diesel or CNG buses, however, they are cheaper to operate in the long run. This seems to totally make sense for a company who is willing to save money. |
Wait Disney World Transport just got 20 2008 Low Floor Gillig Advantage #4965 to #4985 two weeks now & Disney are not getting rid of RTS Buses but last week they were testing electric hybrid just like new york city transit testing the bus on 42 St not to long ago also last year they test Low Floor BRT Gillig Hybrid for 5 days. |
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