BusTalk

[Q65A]

Excellent photos, gentlemen!!!
I'm sure my pal Mr. L. will vouch for this, but it seemed that GBL sampled a broader range of GM Old Looks than did any other NYC bus operator.
For example, GBL owned multi-unit fleets of TD4506's, 4507's, 4509's, 4512's, 5104's, and 5106's. I doubt that any other bus fleet could make the same claim. As a case in point, the 4512 was a very popular Old Look nationwide, yet I believe that GBL was the only NYC operator to purchase them new. (In contrast, "my" bus line, Queens Nassau/Queens Transit, had fewer GM Old Look models. In my youth, I can remember their 5106's, but I never saw their 5104's.) The only Queens operator that had an unusual GM Old Look was JBI, who owned some TDH-5108's (an Old Look that was much more common on the "Jersey side").
Thanks for sharing some great historical items!

[Mr. Linsky]

Bob,

You’re absolutely right about Green Line’s affinity for GM equipment but I believe that most of it wasn’t really in the cards, and happened quite by accident.

Aside from a handful of early Brockways and Indianas Green Line was devout Mack before the war with a roster of nearly 200 purchased between 1933 and 1940.

In fact, a contract was signed with Mack to provide the first new models off the line whenever the war ended but for reasons that have never really been made clear (except in rumor) the deal was cancelled which brought about ‘Green Line the GM Years’!

The first order came in 1946 in the form of thirty five TD 4506’s (ten of which flagged for Manhattan and Queens Bus Corporation).

A 1947 order of 25 TDH 4507’s were originally consigned to Surface Transportation who, for whatever the reasons, refused them.

The 10 1949 TDH 4507’s were also meant for another company somewhere in upstate New York.

The 4509’s, 5104’s, 4512’s and 5106’s were specifically ordered by Green.

So, out of the 145 GM ‘Old Looks’ purchased by the company between 1946 and 1959 thirty five were actually never meant to be.

Green Line had a strict policy of sticking with one brand with the main reason being the stocking of parts which becomes both a logistic and financial problem when you’re running several different makes simultaneously.

About the nearest that any other New York metropolitan operator came to being devout GM would have been the Omnibus Corporation who had an extremely close relationship with Truck and Coach!

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

[Bill D]

Mr. Linsky,

The 4512 was certainly one of the best. While GM was being accused of putting the other manufacturers out of business, their product had the durability that many customers wanted in a transit vehicle. The fact that many of the old looks lasted 25 to 30 years in service speaks more than any "conspiracy theories".

Thanks for the pictures of the Green Line buses. I find the paint scheme on them very appealing.

Bill

[Bill D]

Welcome aboard Safety 2!

I'll keep posting anything that I find of CR&L equipment. Here is an ACF H-17-S at Willow and West Main Streets, returning to downtown Watebury from Overlook.

Bill


Photo courtesy of John Sullivan and Alan Walker of the Connecticut Motor Coach Museum.

Here is a video that I found on You Tube showing one of our present day RTS buses at the same location.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ip5X3WMlA

Video by "Supersonic3783" - borrowed for educational purposes only.

[Mr. Linsky]

[quote="Mr. Linsky"]Bob,

Aside from a handful of early Brockways and Indianas Green Line was devout Mack before the war with a roster of nearly 200 purchased between 1933 and 1940.


Bob,

Forgot one thing;

If you add the 30 inherited Macks from the acquisition of Manhattan and Queens in 1943, then you can say that Green Line stabled nearly 230 Macks between 1933 and 1946!

Now, that was a Mack customer!

Mr.Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Mr. Linsky]

Bill D.,

The You Tube videos are great - I love the one where the RTS starts off before closing the front door (we all used to do that!).

The CR&L ACF #464 photo is another unbelievable find! (pretty soon Ripta42 may have to set up a gallery just for their buses!).

Interesting set of lights on either side of the destination sign - I'm wondering what they where for?

Thanks for sharing - keep them coming.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured below is fleet # 186 – a 1947 ACF-Brill Model C-36 (ser# 522) operating for the Middlesex and Boston Street Railway Company and delivered to the property as part of a 21 bus shipment in February of that year.

Subsequent shipments brought the company a total of 28 C-36’s on their roster.

The American Car and Foundry Company (ACF) and the Brill Corporation (both extremely successful transportation equipment oriented manufacturers) merged to become ACF-Brill in 1944 and, upon the end of the war, returned to building buses.

Two models were offered; the C-36 (a 36 passenger as pictured) powered by a Hall Scott amidships pancake engine with a wheelbase of 198 ½ inches and weighing in at 12,000 lbs., and a 44 passenger version designated as the C-44 with identical specifications except for a slightly longer wheelbase.

Prewar ACF buses were considered to be well designed and built, reliable and long lasting. However, ardent customers found that the post war models no longer met those attributes and few reorders occurred.

ACF-Brill ceased bus manufacture in 1950 with a total of only 2,635 postwar models sold.

The Middlesex and Boston Street Railway Company had its origins at the turn of the century as a streetcar line serving a large area west of Boston until 1930 when the routes were converted to buses.

In 1972 the company was merged into the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority.

Photo Courtesy of the Redden Collection.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

6624

[Bill D]

[Mr. Linsky]

Bill,

The lights on either side of the destination sign were obviously not standard because a photo of a Queens/Nassau Transit (NY) ACF of the same vintage shown earlier in this forum does not have them.

However, they were very prevalent on New Jersey buses and will still be found especially on New York City MTA RTS's.

Blue lights, at least in New York state, signify volunteer firemen's vehicles but I think in this case they may be linked to 'School Bus' services.

I guess we'll need an opinion from one of our resident experts!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured below is fleet # B 603 – a 1948 GM PDA 4101 (ser# 028) and one of 15 such Parlor Cars (B600 to B614) delivered to Public Service Coordinated Transport of New Jersey’s Interstate Division in that year.

Just as transit buses began to increase in length after the war, the 4101 was the first 35 foot intercity coach from GM, other than what was custom built for Greyhound, and made its debut in early 1948.

Identical mechanically to Greyhound’s “Silversides’ (PD 3751) series but with its own body styling, these buses sported Detroit 6-71 Diesel engines, a 247 inch wheelbase, and seating capacity for either 41 in recliners or 45 conventionally.

The design also included provisions for air conditioning but it is unknown as to how many were so equipped.

While the rear windows were standard GM transit, the windshield was a novel and short lived one-piece ‘panoramic’ affair appearing only on the 4101’s, and most of which eventually being replaced with the 4103 configuration due to stress failures.

335 4101 coaches were built at GM’s plant #2 in Pontiac between 1948 and 1950. However, production was halted for several months in late 1948 to build the first large order of a new transit model incorporating a VH transmission and paired windows destined for the City of New York.

Photo courtesy of the Redden Archives.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

6947

[Bill D]

[Mr. Linsky]

Bill,

The buses of CR&L that I remembor so vividly were, of course, the prewar Macks and the livery in very pleasant Green and Cream seems to stick out in my mind.

Unfortunately, all of Mack's builders photos are done in black and white (it would be great if we could see one of the CQ's in color).

The fact that CR&L's 4001's wound up in a remote junk yard is not unusual.

Most New York area buses including those from Long Island find their final resting places way out in New Jersey at an outfit by the name of NIMCO.

I would have to imagine that this is a bid situation and NIMCO is the largest disposer of buses in the country.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured below is fleet # 143 – a 1942 Mack Model LD-3G and one of 45 (ser# 1126 to 1170) built for and delivered to Citizens’ Rapid Transit Company of Hampton Virginia in March of 1942.

The Mack ‘LD’ series had a short life span of only three years between 1941 and 1943 when war ended most bus production. In fact, the LD’s were among the last buses finished before stainless steel was replaced by enamel coated materials for interior stanchions and seat rails.

The 35 to 37 seat LD model was considered heavy duty and classed with the then new larger capacity CO’s and CM’s and had a wheelbase of 218 inches with a 510 cubic inch 6 cylinder gasoline engine developing 150 brake horsepower.

A total of 371 were manufactured with a number going to New York operators including Hempstead Bus Corporation, Schenck Transportation and Yonkers Bus Line.

The Citizens’ Rapid Transit Company had its beginnings in 1942 as a replacement for trolley service along the Virginia peninsula and was a prime mover of defense workers in both Newport News and Hampton Roads during the war.

After a succession of mergers and acquisitions, the routes of the company finally became part of Hampton Roads Transit in 1999 which serves over 22 million annual passengers in the Hampton Roads metropolitan area.

Photo courtesy of Citizens’ Rapid Transit archive.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

7234

[Mr. Linsky]

[Bill D]