BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

As always, greatly appreciate your input.

Quick question:

If "SURFACE" was no longer an "indy' company by 1956, I'm curious as to why their only Fishbowls (TDH-5301s) were lettered for "SURFACE".

Only 50 of these new buses were assigned to "SURFACE" routes, as you, of course, already know.....

"NYO"

["3208"]

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

EXCELLENT "condensed" article; a lot of historical interest, there.!

Speaking of "look-alike"paint, awhile ago, our friend Mr. MaBSTOA 15 (sure hope he returns to us, soon!) asked me regarding the "DOWNTOWN BUS COMPANY"(old Jersey City "indy") was operated by "ORANGE & BLACK, as their "Shermans" shared paint that was virtually identical.

I assured him that there was no affiliation whatsoever between the two companies ("DOWNTOWN"was but a small "local"outfit), whereas "O&B" operated "big time" suburban models to the PABT, as well as providing "local" service" in Bergen and Hudson Counties.

Though I have said this many times previously, I only wish that FACClhad remained "indy", at least until the early 2000's, when the "Em-Tee-Yay" took over the Queens "indies".

I wonder if FACL would have purchased "Borough Bombers", or went to the RTS, purchasing the Mode l01 and 03.............

"NYO"

["AIR CONDITIONED"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

........I often wonder at how "Queen Mary" drivers felt, that, now, without a conductor, they were also responsible for "taking fares", and also, now having to make change, once solely the responsibility of the conductor.

In London, as we've already discussed at length, bus conductors slowly began to disappear with the advent of new one-man, rear-engine buses during the 1960's.

After the last of the iconic "RT"-class were retired in 1979, the now-famed "RM" Routemasters were the only London buses to require conductors; the last "RMs" were retired in 2005, nearly 60 years after the last of the FACCo conductors vanished.....

"NYO"

["735"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

FACCo in "da boroughs"............

FACCo served Manhattan, Queens, and, even for a spell, "da Bronx".

Though I have never read any mention of this, I often wonder if there was ever any interest/talk in FACCo entering Brooklyn?

Of course, Brooklyn was more than dominated by the "Bee-Em-Tee" (subways/els) and the B&QT (streetcars/trolleybuses) as well as "home territory" buses.

It would seem to Your's Truly that the BMT/B&QT would not have been too enthused in having the "tony" FACCo's buses enter the borough.......

"NYO"

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

Well said.

By "tony", I was referring to FACCo itself; true, there were some areas of Brooklyn way back then that were considered "tony" by working-class folks (in the classic 1945 film,"A TREE GROWS IN BROOKLYN", Katie Nolan tells her daughter, Francie (they were then living in 1912 Williamsburg):

".....you can't play there; that neighborhood's expensive........"

On the flip side, Manhattan, "da Bronx", and, Queens were indeed areas where the "Eye-Are-Tee" ruled supreme for many years (the "Eye-En-Dee" would not be serving Queens until the early 1930's)

Though the "Eye-Are-Tee" did (and does) have a strong presence in Brooklyn, it was the "Bee-Em-Tee" that indeed was the "Monarch Of Transit" ("MoT") in that borough.

And, by the time that the sleek, modern, up-to-date "Eye-En-Dee" arrived in Brooklyn, they more than "stood out" from the the two older systems, especially the "Bee-Em-Tee", with its conglomeration of subways, antiquated elevateds, and streetcars.

That the "upper crust" FACCo charged a whopping ten-cent fare (a fortune to a lot of working-class "Joes" back then, instead of the universal nickle) indeed "set the tone" for a "tony"bus operation.

Recall, also, especially in FACCo's early years, that Fifth Avenue itself was still lined with many older mansions; too, remember how NO lowly streetcars were allowed to travel its length, nor was a subway permitted to run along beneath it.

Ironically, there WAS a 5th Avenue el in Brooklyn..............

"NYO"

["GO THE MOTOR COACH WAY"]

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

Agreed 100%.

You and I have BOTH felt that there should be a "follow-up" book by Mr. Ogden, dealing with the later years of FACCo/FACL, AND, also, devoting more pages to the oft-forgotten Fishbowl.

Likewise, a good, detailed, well-illustrated publication on "stoa", its inception, history, and buses.....a book LONG overdue, IMHO.

I agree with you, that many bus buffs are only interested in FACCo during its double-decker years; this, I feel, is depriving them of so much rich knowledge and historical importance.

In the Ogden book, of course, double-deckers take up most of its pages (I have, of course, no problem with this, as I have always greatly loved these wonderfully nostalgic, lumbering old relics); too, there are many great photos of the once-familiar "Shermans" and "Pattons".

BUT....only ONE lone photo in a book with 110 pages of a FACL Fishbowl??

I have to be honest and say that, for whatever reason, Mr. Ogden did not consider the Fishbowl a "real" Fifth Avenue bus..........

"NYO"

["AIR CONDITIONED"]

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Another good idea for a book on FACCo/FACL's last years would be to have separate chapters for each type of bus operated, say between 1953 and 1962.

An idea for a smaller-type book (paper) could be:

"THE GMC FISHBOWL: THE OTHER 5TH AVENUE BUS".

Would also like to see a section of a new book of FACCo/FACL showing photos of the different roller curtains throughout the years.

IMHO, books like these are LONG overdue, and would finally fill the "gap" in the libraries "Noo Yawk"-area bus enthusiasts/historians.........

"NYO"

["1"]

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

At the risk of repeating myself (once again) your roll sign knowledge is truly beyond exceptional; Your's Truly (being from "Joisey") finds it all quite confusing and complex....but so dang FASCINATING!

I always think about being back in the early 60's, after the '62 strike, to see the formation of MaBSTOA, and the assignments/re-assignments of the former FACL/ST/NYO buses.

According to the chapter on MaBSTOA in Mr. Martin's "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT BUSES" (at least, there are TWO photos of FACL Fishbowls in this work!), the early MaBSTOA days HAD to be interesting, to say the least:

".......low-numbered, former NYO TD-4506s, dating back to 1946, were assigned to Surface routes, replacing some Macks......"

".......so much equipment changed hands, that a problem of number duplication existed. The quick fix was to add a 'T' prefix to ex-TA buses, and an 'S" to former Surface buses....."

"..........many buses simply ran on their new routes with no effort to replace destination signs.........."

Yes, it HAD to have been QUITE interesting, for the "Noo Yawk" bus enthusiasts of that day, for certain.......

[W.B. Fishbowl]