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Imagine if FACCo had a facility like this!
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From:

"LONDON AND ITS BUSES" (Terrence Cooper)........

".....in 1891, the majority of London omnibus men struck for a week against the introduction of accountable tickets....."

".....in 1926, most London buses were off the streets during the nine-day General Strike......."

".......for four weeks in 1937, London was again without buses, and, while they sat silently in their garages, a King was crowned......"

".......the best-remembered London bus strike was for higher wages; it lasted for seven weeks in 1958 and achieved nothing, apart from convincing many Londoners to buy a car earlier than they might otherwise have done, and, thus, eschewing the buses altogether......"

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After WW2, American mass transit use began to decline (sharply in many places, especially during non-peak hours); surely, in some form, this also affected FACCo in the postwar years.

In London, private car ownership lagged behind car ownership in the States, well into the 1950's (recall, there was still a good deal of rationing in Great Britain, well into the 1950's)

When there was horse racing at the famous Epsom Downs racetrack, long lines of double-deckers from garages all over London would be on hand at the Morden tube station (the closest to the track) to carry the many hundreds of racing fans between the Tubes and the track.

I have seen photos where over 20 buses would be lined up, either at Morden station, or at the track itself; huge queues were always in evidence.

Interestingly, in Great Britain, buses never displayed "CHARTER" on their roller blinds; it was either "PRIVATE" or "PRIVATE HIRE".

Buses were "hired" NOT "chartered".

With the sharp rise in private car ownership, by the later 1950's, where there had been once a long calvacade of buses at the track, awaiting the Tube-bound crowds, there now were only two or three lonely vehicles from one garage.

On spring and summer Sundays (as well as holidays) LT buses and GREEN LINE coaches would be digesting and disgorging huge crowds heading to and from "the country" for day trips.

Again, by the later 1950's, these crowds (and the services themselves) were but a mere whisper of what they had been, at the beginning of the decade.......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.......discussing London's bygone double-decker operations has me again now thinking of FACCo.

IMHO, FACCo, possibly, could havebecome an all single-deck operation had WW2 not intervened.

I am curious as to about when FACCo management first began seriously discussing the phase-out of double-deckers.

Also, I'm wondering why FACCo purchased the "Queen Marys" at all, instead of simply purchasing single-deck buses.

I can see FACCo not purchasing the "Queen Marys", and using the older buses until 1940, when they could have begun purchasing the new YELLOW Old Looks.......

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly Fifth Avenue's (the road, not the company) "high-class" reputation and pedigree commanded, on one level, the use of double-deckers in any way. Irrespective of the labor conflicts that the staffing demands later touched off. But they must've eyed converting entirely to single-deck immediately before the war, but WWII intervened and they put it off until 1946.

But the 1953 demise of the Queen Marys was a harbinger of FACCo's then-parent, Chicago-based Omnibus Corporation, getting out of the urban omnibus business entirely. Remember, Chicago Motor Coach's Queen Marys were retired in 1950 - two years before Omnibus sold all their routes to the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA).

It's interesting, though, that the first Yellow "Old Looks" (anything built after the war are hereafter known as GM Old Looks, as that branch became the GMC Truck and Coach Division in 1943) saw service in the city via Surface and NYCO before FACCo got any. (Regardless of the Yellow 718's and 740's that saw crosstown service on 57th Street, 72nd Street and in Queens - and of course the demonstration #2500 that FACCo had for decades and was squirreled away to Westchester after the 1962 strike.)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

As always, greatly appreciate your historical info. Wink

Recall, now, the "low clearance" Queen Marys that were used under the El in Queens.

In London, the tight, tubular contours of the Victorian-era under the Thames "Blackwall Tunnel" (known to locals as "The Pipe")presented clearance issues once closed-top buses began appearing in the late 1920's.

Older buses, such as the "NS" types, which were to be assigned to Tunnel routes, had to have their upper deck roofs contoured to fit the contours of the tunnel.

These buses were easily recognized by their dome-shaped, contoured roofs.

This required a lower headroom on the lower deck; this was later modified to have all side-facing seating on the lower deck (bench-type seating)

The upper decks featured side-facing bucket seats, that were positioned back-to-back in the center of the upper deck.

There were also newer buses, such as the "LT" and "ST" types (these buses were the first delivered with enclosed upper decks) that were also modified for Tunnel use.

These buses known as "Tunnel Buses".

In the early 50's, clearances were increased in the Tunnel, and normal-clearance buses could now safely operate through the old tube (this was done by lowering the roadway)

There were, later on, also "low-bridge" buses ("RT's") that were used on routes where low-clearance railway overpasses were encountered (recall FACCo in Queens)*.......

"NYO"

*Curious as to why FACCo simply did not order single-deck buses instead of "Queen Marys" for service under the El in Queens.......


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:55 pm; edited 5 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting page on the history and present-day use of "The Pipe"* (it opened as a single-bore tube in 1897).......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwall_Tunnel

*(Currently, buses on Route #108 use the tunnel; decades ago, bus drivers would say "I'm goin' down 'The Pipe' " if he was assigned to a route that used the Blackwall Tunnel)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.......am also wondering if it would have been less expensive for FACCo to order single-deck buses instead of the modified "low clearance" "Queen Mary's" for Queens service.........

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
.......am also wondering if it would have been less expensive for FACCo to order single-deck buses instead of the modified "low clearance" "Queen Mary's" for Queens service.........

"NYO"

All this was hindsight. The '15' buses, low-clearance they may have been, still passed through hi-falutin' Fifth Avenue. Not until after WWII did the issue of costs come up.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Well, given the fact that both Fifth Avenue (the thoroughfare) and the bus company were both of an "upper crust" sort, this would not surprise me in the least.

Recall, too, that FACCo charged fares more expensive than the subways/els; this, by itself, would suggest they were wooing a more "upper income" bracket, rider-wise, and thus keeping the "hoi polloi" at bay.

As far as single-deck FACCo bus operation goes, as I've said previously, it is of my opinion that, had WW2 not reared its ugly head, that FACCo would have become an all single-deck company long before the last double-deckers actually ran......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting to remember, also, is that the only modern, rear-engine double-deck buses built by YELLOW were the "Queen Marys" for FACCo and Chicago.

YELLOW had, in the past, built front-engined double-deckers for several other cities, in earlier years.

Had FACCo decided, at some point, to purchase new double-deckers after YELLOW went into GM, one cannot help but wonder if these new double-deckers would have been generally based on a modified Old Look design.

Even though FACCo divested itself of its last conductors in 1946 (when the open-top buses were retired), I am sure management was not at all looking to a new generation of double-deckers.

I am wondering, though, what would have been the overall fuel consumption, between a "Queen Mary" and an Old Look (or, for that matter, a MACK).......

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that "Queen Mary" design didn't advance after Yellow became the GMC Truck & Coach Division . . .
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
Interesting that "Queen Mary" design didn't advance after Yellow became the GMC Truck & Coach Division . . .


W.B.:

I have often thought likewise.

It would have been interesting indeed to see the "Queen Mary" design advanced beyond the 1930's design.

In London, for many years, the "RT" and the "RM" looked virtually looked the same over their production years (the "first "RT" entered service in 1939; the first "RM" in 1959)

You would have to really "in the know", bus-wise, to distinguish these buses from one year to the next, taking careful to note the variations between the sub-classes.

Like the classic WW "Beetle" these double-deckers were virtually impossible to distinguish from one year to the other, except, of course, you were one of the knowledgeable London "bus spotters" of the day (of course, there were several excellent bus enthusiast's magazines on the newsagent's racks back in those days, which certainly helped!)

"NYO"

Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Queen Mary"-type double-deckers, unique to only New York and Chicago, lasted not even even near 20 years of service before they were replaced with single-deck equipment.

Sad that, with the exception of the one (known) example today part of the MTA's historic fleet, none survive.

It would have been interesting, to say the least (as I had mentioned elsewhere here) if the "Queen Mary" buses were sold for further operation overseas, as was common with retired London buses.

Recall, too, that a number of the more modern TARS cars were sent to South America and Vienna, where they operated for many years in revenue service.....

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuel consumption........

I would guess that fuel consumption for a single-decker was quite a bit less substantial that that of a double-decker.

The double-deckers were not only larger vehicles, but, of course, especially during rush hours, carried twice the load that a single-deck bus carried.

Another interesting thought would be that, even if the single-deckers consumed less fuel than the double-deckers, it would have still required TWO single-deckers to carry the load of ONE double-decker.......

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can figure out by one formula . . . how much fuel a so-called "Buffalo" bus (which in plural I call Bison) took vs. a regular New Look a.k.a. Fishbowl. A Queen Mary Fishbowl? Think what that might look like. However much Bison took in fuel vs. Fishbowls, a Queen Mary Fishbowl might have been above the Bison.
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