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161st St., 1964/Along 3rd Avenue/Da Bronx
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22290
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Your astute "science" regarding roller curtain readings. colors, fonts, etc., truly serve to bring a vintage bus photo truly "into deeper focus", which tells an important and interesting story to those of us (Your's Truly included) who are "not in the know" regarding the bus signage of years past.


A few quick questions (which might have been addressed elsewhere on the board).....

1):

What buses were the first purchased to use electric roller curtain mechanisms, in place of the old hand-crank variety?

2:

When did mylar begin replacing cloth curtains?

3):

Were there ever any experiments or proposals to install electronic signs in the newer Fishbowls?

4):

What depot (and when) was the last to stable Fishbowls?

Appreciate input.....

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the last B&QT trolleybuses being replaced by Fishbowls in 1960:

In "NEW YORK TRANSIT MEMORIES" (Harold A. Smith) there is a photo from 1960, showing a trolleybus working the "#47 TOMPKINS" (at the Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza) with a new "Tee-Yay" Fishbowl just behind.

Am curious as to how many Fishbowls were required to convert the last trolleybus routes.

Also, IMHO, I would have thought that these modernistic new buses would have started service on one of the more "prestigious" routes, instead of on a "lowly" Brooklyn assignment.

Where were these new buses based?

Did they use the same depot used by the electric bus fleet, or, did they operate out of one of the already-established (bus) depots?

To me, I could see either Old Looks or MACKS converting the last trolleybus routes......

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
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Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
W.B.:

Your astute "science" regarding roller curtain readings. colors, fonts, etc., truly serve to bring a vintage bus photo truly "into deeper focus", which tells an important and interesting story to those of us (Your's Truly included) who are "not in the know" regarding the bus signage of years past.


A few quick questions (which might have been addressed elsewhere on the board).....

1):

What buses were the first purchased to use electric roller curtain mechanisms, in place of the old hand-crank variety?

2:

When did mylar begin replacing cloth curtains?

3):

Were there ever any experiments or proposals to install electronic signs in the newer Fishbowls?

4):

What depot (and when) was the last to stable Fishbowls?

Appreciate input.....

"NYO"

On #1, in general, they'd have been the 1977 Flxible New Looks, but apparently the 'batwings' from a decade before had electronic controls that only the bus operator could use, for the side signs. (Hand-cranked signs, especially on the sides, were no doubt susceptible to passenger mischief among those so inclined.)

For #2, that'd be the 1959 'Tee-Yay' Fishbowls, followed in that order by the 1960 Fifth Avenue Coach Lines and Surface Transit Fishbowls. The 1960 TA Fishbowls, however, seemed to have cloth roll signs if based on pictures taken within that period (the 500 range in that order was assigned to within the two Manhattan depots they operated that were inherited from the old East Side and Comprehensive Omnibus entities), especially on the M-15 First and Second Avenues line. But on the two earlier sets, the mylar roll signs were the earliest produced by a new entry onto the scene - Transign. (Though on pictures especially of the FACL Fishbowls in operation that have been put up here, the '&' was shaped differently, albeit more squarish, than what would be on later roll signs from that company.) I'm not sure if the roll signs of the Fishbowls that operated on Staten Island were cloth or mylar, but the fonts on those seemed to suggest the former (especially those with no prefix, although in those days the letter code used was when its borough name was Richmond). I don't think it was until after 1964 that they stuck with mylar full-time, mostly Transign (though I did see one Brooklyn bus with fonts that suggested a rival firm, Trans-Lite).

As for #4, whichever depot(s) had the last of the Blitz rebuilds.
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Regarding the last B&QT trolleybuses being replaced by Fishbowls in 1960:

In "NEW YORK TRANSIT MEMORIES" (Harold A. Smith) there is a photo from 1960, showing a trolleybus working the "#47 TOMPKINS" (at the Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza) with a new "Tee-Yay" Fishbowl just behind.

Am curious as to how many Fishbowls were required to convert the last trolleybus routes.

Also, IMHO, I would have thought that these modernistic new buses would have started service on one of the more "prestigious" routes, instead of on a "lowly" Brooklyn assignment.

Where were these new buses based?

Did they use the same depot used by the electric bus fleet, or, did they operate out of one of the already-established (bus) depots?

To me, I could see either Old Looks or MACKS converting the last trolleybus routes......

"NYO"

I know part of the 1960 order of 'Tee-Yay' Fishbowls went to Manhattan to serve on such routes as M-15 First and Second Avenues, alongside the 1957 7000 series Old Looks. For the TA, Brooklyn seemed to be the biggest priority for replacements, followed by Queens, with Staten Island seemingly low on the totem pole. After the 1963 set (with those within the 3700's also going to Manhattan, especially their 126th Street depot which replaced the two ex-East Side and Comprehensive Omnibus garages - judging from pictures "of the time" of what was then the #3 49th-50th Streets crosstown), Manhattan didn't get any other "new" buses until the A/C batwing Fishbowls came about (of which they got the last 80, 8123-8202); no part of the two sets of Flx orders were allotted to Manhattan, which may explain why none of those orders would have had 'batwings' as the last ten of the 1964 MaBSTOA Fishbowls, and the last 200 of the 1965 set for them, had.

Though the picture below was taken in Chicago, and was part of the CTA fleet, here is what any Flxible New Looks with batwings might've looked like if, say, a part of the 1965 TA order were to be assigned to Manhattan:



cta_flx-3500_w-batwing.jpg
 Description:
Flxible New Look CTA #3500 with batwings
(For educational purposes only.)
 Filesize:  114.31 KB
 Viewed:  6546 Time(s)

cta_flx-3500_w-batwing.jpg


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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22290
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

MANY thanks for your truly comprehensive, in-depth responses; you provided me with even greater information than I had asked for.....thanks again!

REALLY loved the CTA Flexie with batwings; yup, it DOES make you wish that the "Noo Yawk" Flexies also were so equipped!

In speaking of Fishbowls, one cannot help but wish that they had lasted in "Em-Tee-Yay" service a while longer; I remember them vanishing roughly about the same time the last disappeared on what used to be the NHBL's #1, between JSQ and Nungesers (North Bergen)

Again, thanks for taking the time to share (as usual) a wealth of historic bus operation......much appreciated! Wink

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fishbowl/Flexie comparisons:

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153273

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154762

As the Flex New Look debuted several years after the first GMC Fishbowls, it is, of course, a "no-brainer" as to what bus the Flex was inspired from.

However, the Flexies had a more "hefty" look about them ("a Fishbowl on steroids"!), and, even though the windshield also mimicked those used on the GM buses, you could still see that the Flex windshields were really greatly-enlarged versions of those used on the postwar TWINS.

Well, they've long said that "imitation is indeed the SINCEREST form of flattery"..... Wink

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:19 am; edited 2 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22290
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three photos of postwar TWINS*......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154551

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?156603

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?156604

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

*Note the smaller version of the Flex New Look windshield; also, note the clearance lights.......I seem to see a hint of those used on the "first generation" Fishbowls....

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Fishbowl/Flexie comparisons:

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153273

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154762

As the Flex New Look debuted several years after the first GMC Fishbowls, it is, of course, a "no-brainer" as to what bus the Flex was inspired from.

However, the Flexies had a more "hefty" look about them ("a Fishbowl on steroids!), and, even though the windshield also mimicked those used on the GM buses, you could still see that the Flex windshields were really greatly-enlarged versions of those used on the postwar TWINS.

Well, they've long said that "imitation is indeed the SINCEREST form of flattery"..... Wink

"NYO"

The first photo, #153273, had in the background the Citgo sign at Bruckner Boulevard in the Bronx; the sign had been up since 1962 when the oil firm was called Cities Service and had a different logo (the Citgo insignia dated to 1965). The time/temperature "jump clock" was done especially hugely in terms of its array: each number was 12 columns by 17 rows of bulbs (in contrast to the 6 x 9 which was usual for such displays with that type font, though some places had 7 x 11 and of course the second Dime jump clock on Flatbush in Brooklyn was 9 x 14). Citgo would give way around 1974 over there to Kent cigarettes. One of several which was a familar sight to motorists travelling along the Willis Avenue Bridge.
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Fishbowl/Flexie comparisons:

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153273


Though the 'Flx' here is a later order, same background:

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153936

And on that same site, one of the GM MaBSTOA Fishbowls, from the same time the 'Tee-Yay' were getting the Flxies of the type seen on #154762 (though, in this case, from a year after the other sets debuted on city streets):

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?155127
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

From: "WELCOME ABOARD THE GM NEW LOOK BUS" (McKane/Squier)............

".......CTA #8600 was part of a group of 150 Flex New Looks that were purchased in conjunction with 150 GM's for side-by-side comparison. CTA would continue to favor Flxible until the summer of 1972, when the CTA received a massive dosage of GM's popular T8H-5307A's, followed by additional large infusions in 1974 and in 1976....."

Also:

"......the TDH-5303 was GM's most popular bus, with over 6,000 built in the United States, with a large number going to New York City, which also included MABSTOA........"

".......the transit TDH-5303's were very popular with both the New York City Transit Authority and MABSTOA........"

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GM and FLEX (MaBSTOA).......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?155530

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?155733

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the aforementioned book:

"......when New York's MTA ordered fourth-generation New Look buses for its operating agencies, MTA, MABSTOA, and MSBA, numerous internal specifications were modified,,,,,,"

".....the buses were all 40 feet long and 102 inches wide, and were air-conditioned......."

"......the obvious difference between the 5309 and the 5310 was the employment of longitudinal cantilevered fiberglass seats mounted from the sidewalls on the 5309......"

"......the T6H-5309A's, ordered by MABSTOA, were ordered to replace the trains of the 3rd Avenue elevated....."

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
GM and FLEX (MaBSTOA).......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?155530

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?155733

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

In many cases, the 1975 Flx's were the first time MaBSTOA depots in Manhattan got new buses since the 1966-67 A/C Batwing Fishbowls. Only Hudson depot (farebox code HUD - opened 1972) got most of the two new orders in-between, the first 20 of the 1973 Fishbowl (5309A) order (4800-4819), plus all 62 of the 1974 MaBSTOA Flx' (7300-7361) - augmented by 4721-4727 from the 1969-70 set transferred there; 100th Street got 5310A's 4500-4505, which were in conjunction with reseated A/C batwings 8459-8477.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B:

Always appreciate the detailed input.

Regarding the "Tee-Yay" and MaBSTOA purchasing both GM's and Flexies, recall SURFACE purchasing both (postwar) GM's and MACKS (recall, also, the lone postwar WHITE 1144 demo)

Postwar FACCo was also interesting, as they purchaed not only GMC's and MACKS, but, also, a handful of WHITES (I always felt that these buses were quite out-of-place in the FACCo fleet)

In my area, we did not see Flex New Looks (either transit or suburban) until the large influx of NJDOT buses began arriving about 1976; of course, I always liked them, but regretted that they spelled doom for a large number of Old Looks.

Another little "what if" I like thinking about has FACCo remaining independent until the "Em-Tee-y" purchased the area private companies in the 2000's.

Imagine "GO THE MOTOR COACH WAY" emblazoned above the windows of an RTS?Rolling Eyes

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bit off-topic, here, but, thinking about companies operating "diverse fleets", check out these vintage TRIBORO photos (I am easily reminded of the diverse "indy" fleets I grew up with in "Joisey", many eons ago!) Wink

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154322

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154320

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154325

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154327

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154324

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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