BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

(SEE EARLIER POSTS) It would also appear that-through accounts Your's Truly has read-that the square-window Old looks that were originally FACCo/ST began to be replaced starting about 1963-and then quickly disappearing altogether afterwards; interesting also that the ex-ST "buses with the sign sticking out in the front" were retired after only about 11 years-while the "square window" buses lasted for at least 20 years before being replaced with new rolling stock-------"NYO"

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

WB: Yup-those "front sign sticking out" Old Looks were retired far too early; to this day I do not know why any of the Hudson County independents didn't purchase at least a few; like the square-window Old Looks-the C-45/47 "Pattons" looked quite dated by the 60s (ours disappeared about 1966/1967-when the first Fishbowls began appearing)------I always thought it interesting that-while FACL added 10 "Jetson" Fishbowls to the fleet in 1960-SURFACE-on the other hand-rostered 50---------"NYO"

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

WB: If yours truly is not in error-it would appear that the "Isle of Staten" was the last borough to see Fishbowls (I can recall-as a youngster-when "R" routes were all operated by Old Looks and "Pattons"-60 odd years back (also: did any of ST's "Jetson" Fishbowls operate under a certain El up in "da Bronx" that ran along "Toid"? "NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Another quick related question: When the El up in "da Bronx" running along "Toid" in 1973 was closed-were the ex-FACL and ST Fishbowls still running-or-had these buses already been retired? "NYO"

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

WB: Appreciate this info--------so the ex-FACL/ST "Jetsons" DID last long enough to see the ol' El up in "da Bronx" on "Toid" in its last days; also surprised that at least a few were repainted into the 70's two-tone blue; here in "Joisey" the influx of NJDOT "Dangerfields" in the late 70's caused nearly all (if not all) of the "Joisey Jetson" Fishbowls to be put out to pasture----------"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

TARS/ST------ interested in knowing what new (late 1940s) SURFACE routes basically followed the old TARS streetcar lines-and which runs now only utilized a part of the old TARS routings? "NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Further: When the "stoa" era began in 1962 were any ex-SURFACE/FACL routes initially "restructured"/changed during the first few years-or was it "business as usual"-at least for the first few years? "NYO"

[X-Astorian]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

X-Astorian; THANK YOU for posting these; greatly appreciated! Speaking of TARS/SURFACE-I often wonder at those transit buffs (way back in the day) that did not "connect" TARS' paint job with that of the new SURFACE buses; again thanks for posting these historical "relics"! "NYO"

[W.B. Fishbowl]

On that 1943 TATS map . . . if there had been one for Manhattan, the one bus line they ran in that borough (M-107 Haven Avenue, but actually a 180th/181st Street crosstown that ran between there and St. Nicholas) was on the verge of being discontinued, and the streetcar lines would have no doubt been listed by the route numbers they would later bear as bus routes:
- 100 Broadway-Kingsbridge
- 101 Third Ave.-Amsterdam Ave.
- 102 125th Street Crosstown
- 103 59th Street Crosstown
- 104 Broadway
- 105 Tenth Avenue
- 106 42nd Street Crosstown

As for what routes were altered in the early years of " 'stoa," #5 Sixth Avenue (NYCO Division) tops the list. First, in June, it was rerouted along West Broadway in lower Manhattan in 1962 after Church Street was made one-way northbound, then in November 1963 (12 days before the JFK assassination) it was discontinued outright and merged / absorbed into the #6 Broadway line upon the conversion of the rest of Sixth Avenue / Avenue of the Americas one-way northbound from Franklin Street to 34th Street. In September 1963 the M-103 59th Street Crosstown (ST Division) was extended from 59th and 11th Avenue to 73rd and Broadway. On March 1, 1964, the #1 (NYCO Division) was extended from City Hall to South Ferry, and the #7 (NYCO Division) from 23rd Street and Broadway to 14th Street-Union Square; around that time the latter was also rerouted along 58th Street and Central Park South southbound in transitioning from Ninth to Seventh Avenue, and all of Central Park South northbound, in transitioning from Sixth Avenue to Broadway. The same day as ex-NYCO #5 was ixnayed, ex-FACCo #5 was extended southbound to Houston Street and West Broadway / La Guardia Place, necessitating it to travel along Sixth from Houston to West 8th Street until Jan. 14, 1966, and to West 57th Street from then to 1989 (it now runs along Sixth to Central Park South). (It's ironic that the 1966 changes involved the "return" of two numbers to avenues once associated with the other's "division"; not only ex-FACCo #5 running along Sixth between Houston and 57th - a portion of the old NYCO #5's route - but the ex-NYCO #1, that 1966 day, being moved one block west on SB runs to Fifth between 135th and 40th Streets, a portion of the old FACCo #1's route path.)

As for TARS/ST routes still around today - M-101 and M-104 for sure now only run a portion of their original routes. In both directions. Ditto for M-100.

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WB: WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GREATLY APPRECIATE this intricate in-depth historical "thesis" on ST/early "stoa" routes;talk about INTRICATE! OUTSTANDING info that indeed "says it all"! Thanks again for posting all of this fascinating historical date here------- (I also know-through your always-detailed historical input that the changing of street directions through the years also had a profound change on quite a few bus routes) "NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Curious as to what "Noo Yawk" baseball season would coincide with the last "seasons" for ex-SURFACE and ex-FACCo/FACL buses to be operating-----"NYO"