BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

One of the other reasons why the old Dyre Avenue line was thought of as a part of the IND (despite the fact that old IRT El cars were used) was because the money that eventually funded the line originally was earmarked for an extension of the IND from its terminal at 205th St. to a new terminal near Burke Avenue.........

"NYO"

["Ride The Westchester!"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

With the old NYW&B designed for heavy-duty MU operation, carrying commuters to the suburbs, running narrower, shorter IRT-type cars further into former "Westchester" territory (had Dyre Avenue not been the terminus for the new shuttle operation) would not have been conducive to commuter comfort.

Had IND rolling stock (or, even BMT equipment) been used, this scenario would have been more atkin to the wider, high-capacity electric MU's operated by the NYW&B.

The seating arrangement used on the BMT A-B "Standards" would have been ideal for "long haul" rapid transit operation; however, the main issue was that the NYW&B was practically "next door" to the IRT at 180th St., whereas the IND was nowhere near the "Westchester", and, most certainly, the BMT was far, far removed from the scene, never venturing anywhere near NYW&B trackage.

Too, remember, that, when the new BRT "Standards" entered service, large parts of Brooklyn were still quite suburban in nature; the new BRT rolling stock, with its "semi-suburban" seating arrangements and window shades, reflected this.

Recall, though, how, in 1954, IND "D" trains from the Bronx, by utilizing a portion of the old BMT Culver line, made through service from the Bronx to Coney Island possible.

Now, imagine that there had been a connection to the IND (via the "Westchester") if the IND had been as close to the NYW&B as was the IRT.

There was, at one time, thoughts on running some New Haven MU's out of GCT along the Westchester, via a Bronx track connection........

"NYO"

"N.Y.W.& B. Ry."]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Recall that, in 1941, refurbished INTERBOROUGH elevated cars were assigned to the new Dyre Avenue line, formerly the Bronx portion of the defunct NYW&B Ry.

Compare these interior views of an IRT "MANHATTAN" El car (the type that was initially used on the Dyre Avenue shuttle) with interior views of a BMT "Standard" and a prewar IND car.

Had the City extended rapid transit service beyond Dyre Avenue, and further into former NYW&B territory, it is clear that the wider, longer BMT/IND equipment would have made for a more comfortable commute, on such a lengthy run.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6383

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1766

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?80394

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["Ride The Westchester!"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

In this old view at E. 180th St., we see a Dyre Avenue shuttle train (gate cars) at the old "Westchester" platform (note that the other ex-NYW&B rails have been removed.

The massive E.180th St. station house is out of the picture to the left......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?97843

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["White Plains Rd."]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

An excellent page with many modern-era photos......

https://forgotten-ny.com/2012/04/new-york-westchester-boston-railroad-part-1/

["Dyre Ave. Shuttle"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Here's another interesting page, this one highlighting the E.180th St. station; there is also information here on the NYW&B and the old Dyer Avenue shuttle.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_180th_Street_station

["Transfer To IRT Subway For Manhattan & Brooklyn"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Very interesting photo gallery with images of the E.180th St. station building, and the demolition of the old NYW&B elevated structure south of the station, back in 2003.........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/showpix?nsta=1134310

(courtesy:nycsubway.org)

["Ride The Westchester! Save Time! Avoid Traffic Woes!"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Compare these two views, both taken at about the same location (old NYW&B/shuttle platform), taken about 50 years apart.....

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?45177

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27069

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["Shuttle Trains to Dyre Avenue"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

One cannot help but to wonder what the current transit picture in New York might have been like, had the NYW&B never existed, and it was, instead, Mr. Belmont's INTERBOROUGH that wended its way through the upper reaches of the Bronx and inter Westchester County.

Recall, the earliest LIRR MU's, the MP-41's, were virtually indentical to the original INTERBOROUGH rolling stock, both inside and out.

This scenario, then, would have allowed for a one-seat ride between Weschester communities, the Bronx, Manhattan, and Brooklyn.

It is an interesting "what if" to ponder over......

"NYO"

["INTERBOROUGH"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Compare these photos of an early INTERBOROUGH car and one of the LIRR's MP-41's; the cars are virtually identical.

Of course, the IRT cars had no need of the large railroad-style headlights used on the MP-41;s.

In their later years, the markers on the MP-41's were no longer used; they were either turned to an angle that rendered them useless, or, removed altogether.

The interiors of the MP-41's were identical to the earliest IRT subway cars, as well as the elevated cars; they were even furnished with leather standee straps.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?138710

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?43392

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["IRT"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Here is a latter-day (late 1940's) view of an elderly LIRR MP-41; again, note the close resemblance to the original INTERBOROUGH cars.

Of course, the INTERBOROUGH cars had no need for vestibule traps.....

www.rr-fallenflags.org/li/li-mu1110ggC.jpg

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["L.I.R.R."]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Some of the very earliest LIRR MP-54's also hand standee straps near the vestibules, but these were removed in later years.

Right up until their retirement of the 1970's, the Illinois Central's 1920's MU's had metal standee straps near the vestibule ends.

These big electrics, interestingly, also were equipped with rapid transit-style pantograph gates at the ends.

Also, like rapid transit equipment, they featured air-operated vestibule doors.

Interestingly, in the 1950's and 1960's, Canadian National revamped a number of their older heavyweight commuter coaches, giving them interior seating arrangements that combined both suburban commuter and rapid transit (including hand-hold stanchions).......

"NYO"

["Route Of The Dashing Dan"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Here's a classic IC "action" photo from the long-ago year of 1966, showing one of their old MU's in action; at first glance, you'd swear that this big, olive-drab electric was one of the old Lackawanna "Wickerliners", racing across the Jersey Meadows!

www.rr-fallenflags.org/ic/ic-mu1152g14.jpg

(courtesy: fallenflags.org)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

That the original LIRR MP-41 MU's were more atkin to the INTERBOROUGH's cars than "main line" MU's is more than evident in an interesting photo from ELECTRIC HERITAGE OF THE LONG ISLAND RAILROAD" (Ziel/Krause)

This yard photo shows an elderly MP-41 in front of (but not coupled to) an arch-roof MP-54 car; the MP-41 gives the strong impression of an IRT car, more than it does a "main line" MU.

Interestingly, vestibule trap doors on these cars had substantial overhang, which was made necessary by the narrow-width car operating on high-level platform, standard-clearance lines.......

"NYO"

["MP-41"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

There had also been plans, prior to WW1, to operated steel BRT (BMT) subway trains over the Brooklyn Bridge.

The trains would have used ramps in the vicinity of the new Chambers St. station (then a terminal) which would have brought the subway trains to the level of the El tracks crossing the Brooklyn Bridge (the track layout at Chambers St., to this day, hints at where the tracks to the Bridge would have begun to rise)

But, not surprisingly, this grandoise plan was never to be, for a number of valid reasons.

The Brooklyn Bridge itself would have had to have been structurally re-enforced to handle the weight of the steel subway cars; likewise, the extensive network of elevated trackage on the Brooklyn side would also have had to have been rebuilt to handle the heavier steel equipment......

"NYO"

["CHAMBERS"]