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[NJ]When route signs look like destination signs
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22278
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in the 1930's/40's, yet another "long-haul" company that served Journal Square was "SAFEWAY".

It is also interesting to note the positions of the buses themselves in the Square area, through the decades.

Photos from the 1930's and 40's show that, while some buses were loading from the same locations that they were in the 1960's and early 1970's, other loading "patterns" were different.

In the McNulty Jersey City book that Joe and I had been discussing, there is a photo (looking north) from Sip Avenue, taken in 1947.

You can see what appear to be "local" buses lined up near the once-familiar Art Deco waiting shelters on the Hudson Boulevard bridge spanning the H&M and PRR tracks.

The area where the BERGEN AVENUE, GREENVILLE, RED & TAN, and SHBL loaded in the later 1950s , 60's, and early 70's is occupied by what appear to be suburban/long haul buses, facing north.

Two front-engined buses are loading here, one angled in towards the business block were many stores were located (east side of the Square), the other facing due south.

There are also several taxis line up in the space where bus lanes would later be located.

A Railway Express truck is also seen, making a delivery, alongside one of the older buses.

Traffic signal kiosks are also seen here.

Another interesting photo in the book (taken about 1950) shows several WHITE 798 suburbans (they look to be INTER-CITY buses) that are lined up (and facing north), but quite close to the towering TRUST COMPANY building, on the west side of the Square.

Clearly, the loading/unloading lanes for the buses at Journal Square were shifted quite a bit over the years, according to old photos........

"NYO"
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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 858
Location: Long Island

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOCAL roller sign on Greenville and Lafayette Autocar 201 linked HERE.
---
So it wasn't only Bergen Avenue that displayed that uninformative LOCAL sign.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22278
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe:

As AUTOCAR was a legendary truck builder for seemingly forever, many are surprised to learn that the company once built buses as well.

When I was growing up, everyone I knew referred to the #1 NHBL line as "the Number #1 Local"

I always wondered, myself, at the use of the word "LOCAL" on the roller curtains of the "indy" buses, especially as no express service was offered.

In "MACK BUSES PHOTO ARCHIVE" (edited by Harvey Eckart). there are two photos of a 1938 MACK Model "CQ" (these modern buses, introduced in 1934, where the first MACKS to have rear engines)

The bus is lettered for the "MONTGOMERY & WEST SIDE" ("The Red Bus", to local folks)

The roller curtains (front and side), simply read:

"MONTGOMERY & WEST SIDE"

No terminal/route information at all is displayed........

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22278
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the first two photos, note that the BERGEN AVENUE Old Look and Fishbowl have signs reading:

"BERGEN AVENUE LOCAL"

The third photo shows one of the new Flex New Looks; its sign simply reads:

"BERGEN AVENUE"

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?120

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?110

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?128

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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MaBSTOA 15



Age: 70
Joined: 27 Feb 2013
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe,

Regarding your question about the bus models in the Public Service “B”, “C”, and “D” alpha prefix fleet roster, here’s how it breaks down...

“A”... TDH & TDM 3207 and TDH & TDM 4008 = square windows
“B”... TDH & TDM 3207 and TDH & TDM 4008 = square windows
“C”... TDH & TDM 3209 and TDH & TDM 4509 = paired windows
“D”... TDH-4509 (D900 experimental with trolley poles)
“E”... TDH-3612 and TDH & TDM 4509 = paired windows
“F”... TDM-3612, TDM-4509 and TDM-5107 = paired windows
“G”... TDH & TDM 4509 and TDH & TDM 4512 = paired windows
“H”... TDM-4512 = paired windows
“J”... TDH & TDM 4512 and TDM-4515, TDM-5108 = paired windows
“K”... TDH & TDM 4512 and TDM-5106 = paired windows
“L”... TDH & TDM 5106 and TDM-5108 = paired windows
“M”... TDH & TDM 5106 and TDM-5108 = paired windows
“N”... TDM-5108 = paired windows

There was no “I” or “O” alpha prefix fleet numbers.

The new looks began with “P” thru “Z”. There was no “Q” or “S”, alpha prefix fleet numbers.
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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 858
Location: Long Island

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! Many thanks, MaBSTOA 15. What a marvelous summery of the Public Service alpha prefix system! I am going to have to bookmark or copy this somehow, as Bus Talk's search engine returns threads, not posts, as results.
--
(Yes, copy it to Word, save it myself!)
---
I think I also remember when the Z prefix arrived.
---
I was ten to twelve years old when the new postwar fleet of Surface Transportation arrived to replace the streetcars of Manhattan and The Bronx. It was like watching a parade of newer and newer models.
Joe
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In later years, a letter was added as a SUFFIX, and not a PREFIX, as can be seen here, with "Buffalo" #603A, near the PABT.......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1497

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fishbowl #534A at Hoboken, 1972.......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1496

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several years into the "TNJ" era, we see Fishbowl #535A at the Oradell Garage.

Note that the roller curtain has been partially ripped away; you can still read:

"COYTESVILLE" (Fort Lee)

"NEW YORK SUBWAYS"

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?303

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22278
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suburban Fishbowl #703A approaching the Lincoln Tunnel, 1981......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2315

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22278
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's #549A, on the "#200 PARK RIDE", heading for the PABT in 1981; note "MANHATTAN LINES" Fishbowl bringing up the rear.......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2314

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here we see #547A on another "#200 PARK RIDE" run, outbound from the PABT, in 1981......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2313

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 858
Location: Long Island

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to 2629 for documenting in photos the transition from LOCAL to BERGEN AVENUE LOCAL to BERGEN AVENUE on front roller signs.
---
I wonder what the signs now say in 2020. I looked at a half-mile of Bergen Avenue's north end on Google Street View, but it must have been a holiday, as I saw no Bergen Avenue bus, just an NJT 87 (former Jackson).
---
Dad's explanation for the IBOA's was that Hudson County politicians could get far more votes from handing out jitney licenses one-at-a-time during the 1920's, doing favors for individual residents and their families. Letting PSNJ in did not yield ballots. A guess: Maybe the word LOCAL emphasized that the IBOA was granted a route through local Hudson County administration, not through the State of New Jersey.
---
Speaking of Public Service, our doorbell rang one morning this week. A young man from PSEG Long Island (no ampersand) announced we would be without power for a few minutes as he replaced our electric meter with a smart one that would send its readings in to headquarters, replacing the meter reader. I thanked him. I did not tell him about the meters inside Public Service streetcars on Bloomfield Avenue, meters that encouraged the motormen to coast rather than draw power needlessly.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe:

You are quite welcome! Wink

In my day, the only time you'd see "EXPRESS" on a roller curtain (in my general area) was when you were along a PS or "ORANGE & BLACK" suburban route, during rush hours.

Looking at old 1960's-era TT's, the old companies like WESTWOOD and RED & TAN (among others) then offered frequent rush hour express services.

Back in the early 1980's, I can still remember when what had been ORANGE & BLACK's "RIVER ROAD EXPRESS" had the last bus leaving the PABT about 7pm weeknights (this was, of course, many, many years before the massive townhouse/condo development of the Weehawken/Edgewater River Road area (which is now a multi-lane highway)

Today, it's a totally different story with NJT's #159R, the descendent of the old "RIVER ROAD EXPRESS".

Your Dad's opinion on the "indy" operators of long ago echo what I have often read (and heard) over the years.

Jersey City Mayor Frank Hague, a "larger than life" political figure, was indeed involved with virtually aspect of Jersey City's commerce, and, I'm willing to wager that he had friends/associates that had ties to the "indy" bus operators then running.

Speaking of PS, my late brother, Frank, worked in the gas/electric department of PS from 1961 until 1990 (Hudson County); I still remember, being quite young, thinking he worked for the BUS "arm" of PS, when I first saw the familiar "triangle within a circle" PS insignia on his truck/van!

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note the different "EXPRESS" signs on these "MAPLEWOOD" buses, in back of the former ORANGE & BLACK garage in Fairview (MAPLEWOOD, in later, years, took over ORANGE & BLACK* and INTER-CITY, which was why you'd find former INTER-CITY buses on old ORANGE & BLACK routes.

I rode these buses too many times to count, back in my much younger years........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3410

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

*Also note "first generation" ex-ORANGE & BLACK Fishbowls.......
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