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MaBSTOA T6H-5309A (and El replacement buses)
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 55
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 1393
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
.......interesting, too that what later became MaBSTOA eventually replaced two rail lines, both streetcar and rapid transit.

Here again, even if SURFACE service along the former route of the 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan was increased, the buses still could not compete (capacity/speed-wise) with the El trains, even as elderly as they were.

Recall, also, there were those ever-optimistic folks that indeed believed that the new 2nd Avenue subway would soon be built, and put into service; remember, too, the extra burden placed upon the already-overcrowded East Side IRT (Lex) lines, when the 3rd Avenue (Manhattan) line closed.

In 1946, SURFACE purchased 97 TD-4506's and 103 TD-4507's; that same year saw the end of TARS conduit streetcars in Manhattan.

Interestingly, in Guy E. Martin's book "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT BUSES", there is no mention (in the MaBSTOA chapter) of the new buses (the T6H-5309A's) that were purchased to replace the 3rd Avenue El trains in the Bronx (1973).......

"NYO"

Only about half of the buses ordered actually replaced the El. 20 of them, as I've noted (4800-4819), went to service on Manhattan routes assigned out of the Hudson depot. The others were strewn about other Bronx routes. The last 60 (4860-4919), in any case, pretty much condemned the remainder of the 1960 FACL and ST Fishbowls that had been still on the road at that point, to permanent mothballs, so it was a multi-replacement. Besides, 1965 OA Fishbowls (within the 6401-6700 range) were assigned to the Bx55 as well as the new 1973 set.

But as for the Manhattan Third Avenue, it wasn't only with the 1955 demise of that borough's el. Bus traffic was affected majorly in 1960 when Third became one-way northbound, and Lexington Avenue one-way southbound, so that the M101 was moved one block west on SB routes along Lexington thru 23rd Street (later turning onto Third at 24th), NYCO Division's own 3 and 4 buses were discontinued (with the former basically rebranded as another short-run M101 running between 125th and 23rd Streets, and a long and winding saga of the latter involving an extension of the #2 Park Avenue South-Madison Avenue route, the 1966 one-way conversions of Fifth and Madison, and then the 1969 discontinuance of what was then the Lenox 2 branch and its replacement north of 116th with a "new" 101A Third-Lexington-Lenox line).

I'm still waiting to see pics taken between 1966 and 1969 of the Lenox 2 branch traveling down Fifth. I still lurk around eBay and PicClick.
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 55
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 1393
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
1950's Brooklyn.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?30941

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?140669

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

The side sign on the 'batwing' in pic #30941 underscores how impractical producing new such signs after the 1974 Manhattan and Bronx route numbering changes would have been; the relative width of the Standard Medium (Akzidenz-Grotesk) font, even in upper and lower case - not nearly as versatile as the various widths of Transign's custom type.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

As always, greatly appreciate your sharing your vast knowledge of the long-gone "Tee-Yay" era! Wink

You mentioned two-way streets becoming one-way; in Baltimore, back in the 1950's, such street conversions spelled doom for remaining streetcar lines.

IMHO, I have long thought that, had there not been a FACCo strike in 1962, it would have been only a matter of time before the once-proud Company, its buses, and its routes, all would, eventually, becoming absorbed into the huge "Tee-Yay"/"Em-Tee-Yay" empire.

Recall, "AVENUE B & E. BROADWAY", "GREEN BUS", "TRIBORO", etc.; personally, I am still surprised that thee long-established companies remained "indy" as long as they did.......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....am just curious to what bus routes ran along Myrtle Avenue when the El was closed down in 1969; also, what (if any) changes were made to existing bus service along Myrtle Avenue, post-El........

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Myrtle Avenue, in post-El 1970's.........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153201

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154815

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154824

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153138

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See also:

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/BMT_Myrtle_Avenue_Line

For many years, the El had served workers at the Brooklyn Navy Yard (in decline by the 1960's)

Was this one of the factors that led to the El's demise?

What bus routes served the facility?

Appreciate info......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Look #4777 (TDH-5101), holding down a B54 run, beneath the sinewy Myrtle Avenue El, 1955.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?156987

(courtesy: nycubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unidentified location along the 3rd Avenue El (early 1950's); note the SURFACE bus under the El......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75759

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On this day in 1973, the Bronx section of the 3rd Avenue El was closed.

Prewar IRT cars were used until 1969; these cars were then replaced by R-12's*, by this time the oldest IRT cars in service.

MaBSTOA buses replaced the elevated trains, as we all know......

"NYO"

["Shuttle-Gun Hill Rd."]

*Interestingly, two of the cars from the final 3rd Avenue train still exist today; one has been restored for "The Train Of Many Colors", while its sister is stored at the 207th St. yards.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way it was.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?57234

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?28713

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?57205

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?57233

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75739 *

* (this photo depicts the farewell to the Manhattan section of the El in 1955; the 3rd Avenue El was also the last outpost of the ancient MUDC cars)

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

("Third Avenue Elevated"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recall, also, that the Second Avenue Subway was to have been the replacement for the 3rd Avenue El; the Manhattan section closed in 1955, and the Bronx section closed down in 1973.

It took until the 21st century for a Second Avenue "stubway" to finally open; the small fleet of BUDD R-11's (later rebuilt as R-34's) were to have been the first of a large fleet for the new Second Avenue line.

It is interesting to imagine, also, the Bronx section of the 3rd Avenue El being replaced by a new subway line along 3rd Avenue.

This new line would have began elevated at 180th St, and then, dive underground into a new subway (provisions could also have been built in to tie it into the 2nd Avenue subway line in Manhattan, when it was eventually built.

Of course, there were so many factors coming into play that kept the 2nd Avenue line from becoming a reality.

As we've already discussed here, it would seem that the replacement MaBSTOA buses would not be able to "move the masses" as the old elevated line once did.....

"NYO"

["T6H-5309A"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1969 was the last year that the last of the prewar IRT cars ran in revenue service on the 3rd Avenue El; this photo was taken at 204th St.

Note the MaBSTOA bus passing underneath the El on the right......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?57278

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

{"Shuttle-Gun Hill Rd"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

183rd St. & 3rd Avenue, 1973.

Note the sign hanging from the elevated structure, above the MaBSTOA Fishbowl:

"BUSES & RIGHT TURNS ONLY"

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?28692

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["Shuttle-149th St."]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 16471
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

180th St., 1973......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?28686

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["Shuttle-149th St/3rd Av"]
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