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MaBSTOA T6H-5309A (and El replacement buses)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 13625
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a couple of quick questions for any of the experts still within the "Bus Talk" realm these days........ Wink

1:

When did the last MaBSTOA buses lose their green paint?

2:

In what year did the last MaBSTOA Fishbowls and New Looks run? (also, what lines/depots were they last assigned to?)

3:

Where there more GM's equipped with a/c, or were there more Flexies?

Appreciate any info....STAY SAFE AND HEALTHY, my friends! Very Happy

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 13625
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....also, when these MaBSTOA buses were retired, were all equipped with a/c, or were there still some buses that lacked it?

Thanks....

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 54
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 1067
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaBSTOA 15 wrote:
Regarding the bat-wing side sign for route 15....

If memory serves me right... I believe there was a reading that said “15 Jackson Heights” (JH in two lines)... Fifth Ave. was left in the dust.

Must've been on non-batwing side signs, based on what I've seen of 1964 OA Fishbowls on that run.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 13625
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two photos (w/updated links) of MaBSTOA Fishbowls rolling along amid the soon-to-be removed pillars of the now-gone 3rd Avenue El (1974)

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154039

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154008

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 13625
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though, of course, I've read much on the 3rd Avenue El over the years, I have always pondered the logic of why the Manhattan section of the El was abandoned in 1955, while the Bronx section lasted nearly two decades more.

As we have discussed elsewhere here, even with increased MaBSTOA bus service along the former El route, the replacement buses could, in now way, truly fill the void left behind by an elevated rapid transit line running multiple-car trains.

IMHO, I am surprised that the El (in both Manhattan and the Bronx) lasted as long as it did, with all the other Manhattan elevateds long gone.

Interesting, too, in that prior to 1955, "el" cars were used; when the last of the MUDC's (and the borrowed BMT "Q'") were replaced, you had steel IRT cars providing the service.

So, obviously, the 3rd Avenue line COULD (and did) handle steel equipment (at least in the Bronx)

Interesting, also, is that all of the INTERBOROUGH elevated lines in Manhattan only used wooden rolling stock.

The Market-Frankford El in Philadelphia (heavily rebuilt in recent years) never operated wooden rolling stock; interestingly, steel equipment was used from its earliest days.

Recall, also, the talk of replacing the ancient wooden "Q" cars on the Myrtle Avenue El (had it not been abandoned in 1969) with modern lightweight cars (I believe thee would have been the R-39's?), lightweight versions of the Brightliners/R-38's.

Had the Myrtle line not been abandoned in 1969, I can imagine the new rolling stock resembling (at least somewhat) the "Almond Joy" el cars in Philadelphia......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 13625
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"TRANSITION" (from wood to steel, Gun Hill Rd)......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?41143

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?45750

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?12250 *

*(note MaBSTOA bus at the lower left of picture)

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 13625
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A relic of the past still intact (for now).......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?28713

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 13625
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buses* on Myrtle Avenue, 1972......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153201

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154818

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

*How was bus service along Myrtle Avenue operated after the El stopped running? (remember, also, that the El trains did not have to deal with traffic congestion or traffic lights)

It would seem that, even at a glance, that any bus that ran along Myrtle Avenue after the elevated trains disappeared could not handle the amount of people that one single train once did.

There were many who clamored for the removal of the Els, claiming they were noisy nuisances that were causing neighborhoods to fall into decay.

Look at how many areas in the city (that either had not had elevateds in decades, or, had never had them to begin with) became less-than-desirable, blighted inner city areas, by the later 1960's and 1970's.

Had the old Myrtle Avenue El been revamped, perhaps the new rolling stock would have resembled these cars from Philadelphia......

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?72899

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?16995

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parsons Blvd & Jamaica Avenue, 1980.

Here we see one gaunt, now-redundant column remaining from the old BMT Jamaica El, which was closed down a few years previously.

I've heard accounts of those who thought that things would "improve" once the El was gone; on the other hand, I've also heard that things declined still further after the El was demolished, according to some......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153930

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rd Avenue & 23rd St., 1973.

When this photo was taken, the Manhattan section of the 3rd Avenue El had already been gone for 18 years; from what I can see here, this area does not appear to have been magically transformed into a "hi-tone" district, after the removal of the "noisy, clattering, dingy old El"......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?155058

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things truly date this 2011 photo showing the long-abandoned Myrtle Avenue El trackways: the pay phone on the left and the RTS beneath the old El trackways.....

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?144497

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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X-Astorian




Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 138
Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
3rd Avenue & 23rd St., 1973.

When this photo was taken, the Manhattan section of the 3rd Avenue El had already been gone for 18 years; from what I can see here, this area does not appear to have been magically transformed into a "hi-tone" district, after the removal of the "noisy, clattering, dingy old El"......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?155058

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)


Perhaps change is in the eye of the beholder and this is a narrow view. However, the four tenements in the foreground appear to have been improved and the second one sports modern windows. The large red brick apartment building in the background at 24th Street was built in 1963 so things were certainly happening.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 13625
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

X-Astorian:

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"? Wink

I've (fairly recently) followed a discussion (which, sadly, became quite heated at times, and not in a good way) on the Myrtle Avenue El (i.e., the neighborhood it served was already in decline, etc.)

I've also read that the old Brooklyn Navy Yard was then (1960's) in decline, which further hastened the El's usefulness (according to some)

Today, look at how many Els still survive in the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens.

Of course, these lines carry steel subway car and not wooden El cars, but, while in one way it is correct to refer to them as "elevated subways", they still, for all practical purposes, are "els"............

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

62nd & New Utrecht, 1981 (note the SHINY R-38's above, with nary a trace of graffiti!)

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154429

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

From: "UNDER THE SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK" (Brian Cudahy)........

"......what is the difference between a genuine el and a rapid transit line built on an elevated structure? In the late 1960's, for instance, the Myrtle Avenue line in Brooklyn was referred to as city's 'last el'. Yet, a score or more of avenues all over town had-and STILL have-extensive overhead subway lines, operating on what certainly LOOK like els......"

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a few old images of the massive elevated Broadway Junction complex; for many years, it served both bona-fida EL trains as well as steel subway trains (and, of course, this impressive complex certainly IS elevated)..... Wink

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75538 *

*(note the MACK beneath the BMT "C"-type el cars)

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?4624

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2567 **

**(Note the lead R-10 carrying a BMT "14" route number, while destination box is blank)

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6601

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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