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What does the future hold for the PABT?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
NYO
Carnival Cruise Line doesn't directly operate any shuttle's that I am aware of, however, like most lines, they charter shuttles to connect to their ships at various ports around the world.

OTOH, two 'cousin's' of CCL, Holland America and Princess jointly operate a subsidiary, Royal Hyway Tours, dba Holland America Princess, that own and operate a large network of buses in Alaska and the Yukon. All of them are part of the Carnival Corporation. HAP also serves other cruise lines calling in Alaska, both Carnival owned, and independent ones....

Oldest cruise ship? If not the very oldest, the MV Astoria comes pretty close, more known as the SS Stockholm, yes, the one that collided with the Andrea Doria.
See the wiki history...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Astoria

Average cruise ship speed is probably around 23 knots or so. Some can crank it up to 25 or 26 knots. Current fastest is Queen Mary 2. She can speed up to 30 knots if necessary, using her marine turbines for extra power, but rarely does anymore, except for adverse conditions, or medical evac...


traildriver;

GREAT info....thank you!

The former "STOCKHOLM" is STILL chugging along?

Man. that's news to me!

Talk about a "historic" vessel

In the chapter "NEW YORK TO BERMUDA BY SEA"(Brian J. Cudahy's "AROUND MANHATTAN ISLAND AND OTHER MARITIME TALES OF NEW YORK"), Mr, Cudahy describes in detail how the "DREAMWARD's" stabilizers work; man, those stabilizers must get one heck of a workout, in rough seas!

The fellows that pilot these monolithic vessels HAVE to be really "steady" guys at the helm, especially at those times when the "mighty waves start a-crashin'!

He also describes, in detail, how the "father-and-son" engine arrangement works; he also states that this system was commonplace on most modern passenger vessels.

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver/all:

One of the things that still amazes me regarding modern cruise ships, is when you see one of these monolithic vessels back out from her berth, TOTALLY unassisted by tugs! Shocked

Back in the day, one simply could not imagine seeing one of the huge liners of the day either dock or set sail without the aid of several hard-working steam (or diesel) tugs! (FOND memories in my head of the "MORAN" and "McCALLISTER" tugs!)

Here, I'm reminded of the now nearly 40-year old "BARBERI" and "NEWHOUSE" on the Staten Island run; I recall it was a BIG news item then that these huge orange ferryboats no longer used "traditional" props, but now, utilized cycloidal pitch; it was also MORE than novel to learn that these big boats did not need wooden racks at terminals to dock.

Regarding tugboats, I can heartily recommend the following excellent books:

"TUGBOATS OF NEW YORK" (George Matteson)

"TUGBOAT"* (David Plowden)

*This wonderfully dated book from 1976 is a MUST for anyone who recalled the old "MORAN" tugs; PLENTY of pictures of vintage, long gone MORAN boats assisting such classic liners as the "ROTTERDAM", "OCEANIC", "STATENDAM", and "QUEEN MARY".

There are many interesting docking photos here as well; you will also see many old piers and other structures that no longer exist (including the late, great Twin Towers).

The frontspiece features a timeless photo showing the "JULIA C. MORAN", with one of the "MERRELL"-class SI ferries passing by in the foggy background (this was when the "MERRELL" and remaining "MISS NEW YORK" boats were sporting gray-painted wheelhouses)........

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYO--

Even today, in the age of bow and stern thruster's, azipod's, et al....on a very windy day, you'll still find good ole Moran tugs assisting cruise ships into the Manhattan cruise terminal...
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
NYO--

Even today, in the age of bow and stern thruster's, azipod's, et al....on a very windy day, you'll still find good ole Moran tugs assisting cruise ships into the Manhattan cruise terminal...


trailderiver:

THAT, indeed, is GOOD news! Very Happy

As a kid, I can remember several tugs assisting the liners, either as they were docking or pulling out; ALWAYS a lot of activity!

Back in the 1920's, Mom when was in grade school (in Union City), a brother and sister in her class had a "MORAN" uncle, and the other boys in the class liked asking the brother about the tugs; his name was Johnny, his sister's name was Katy.

I recall seeing one one fellow (I cannot recall now if he worked for "MORAN" or "McCALLISTER") in a 1930's-era photo, leaning out the window of a building in lower Manhattan (the Battery Maritime Building?) shouting out orders to the tug skippers through a huge megaphone!

Of course, this was in the days before more "hi-tech" communications entered the picture!

This guy HAD to have leather lungs, for sure, making himself heard above the noise of traffic and elevated trains!

I would have LOVED to have watched this guy "do his thing", back in the day! Very Happy

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all of the once-commonplace, railroad-owned tug fleets long gone, and the NY Harbor tug population a whisper of what it once was decades ago, the following from "TUGBOATS OF NEW YORK" (Matteson) explains why......

"......faced with a shrinking customer base, ever-higher operating costs, and even more stiff competition from the trucking industry, most towing companies were forced into a defensive posture.......conserving aging boats, cutting costs wherever possible, and to hang on to dwindling sources of income......"

"...........as the transport of raw materials diminished, the once-busy shores of Newtown Creek and the Gowanus Canal grew quiet. Companies such as RUSSELL BROTHERS and Hugh Bond's GOWANUS TOWING, which had held the towing on these waterways as strong profit centers, now had to look for work in the broader waters of the harbor......"

......the general decline and disappearance of much industry in and around the harbor struck hard in the ranks of towing companies. Many went under, many merged, all were worried, and a few were clever enough to survive......"

This decline in harbor traffic and industry, especially through the later 1960's and 1970's, also spelled evil times indeed for the railroads then serving the waterfront industries, most of which owned their own fleets of tugs, carfloats, and covered lighters (also ferries, in earlier days)........

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly........

it would be interesting, to say the least, to see how many towing companies (as well as individual tugboats) were operating in NY Harbor, say, about 1960, and then, compare that number to the number of towing companies (and their vessels) that are serving New York today.

Certainly, the number of vessels alone would far, far down than from what it was 60 years ago.

Too, the tugboat population in the harbor in decades past was further bolstered by the steam and diesel tugboats that were then being operated by the "Fallen Flag" railroads: B&O/E-L/CNJ/LV/PRR/NYC/BEDT/NH, all of which now long gone (so many of these now-classic old tugs sadly rusted and rotted away for decades at WITTES on Staten Island.....Rust In Piece, faithful old friends) Crying or Very sad

Secondly, regarding the current PABT situation.......

With the Lincoln Tunnel already grossly overtaxed, even if the current bus terminal was expanded, how long would it be before IT, too, would also become hopelessly overburdened?

Also, even IF a new, larger terminal were to be built (where WOULD it be built?), the problem of the nearly always-snarled Lincoln Tunnel would STILL remain an issue.

The only situation I could see (not in our lifetimes) is, if, when, a new terminal were built, a NEW tunnel (with several tubes) would be built under the Hudson for the use of BUSES only.

Of course, I, realistically, cannot see that happening, but it is, at least, a thought......

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is sufficient room between 9th Avenue and 12th Avenue, 39th and 40st streets to erect a large modern terminal and bus storage garage over the tunnel and terminal ramps, and PA owned lots...they might have to buy out a few old buildings in that general area, but it is mostly open space. The biggest problem would be to have some kind of people mover to connect it with the Times Square and 8th Avenue subway complex...
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

I also, was thinking along the lines of the area nearest to the Hudson River; again, a new trans-Hudson tunnel (for buses only) could alleviate so much of the strangulation that is today a given at the Lincoln Tunnel.

You also mentioned some sort of connection to the subway (people-mover, etc.)

One of the things I envision would be a new, massive multi-modal complex, serving buses, ferries, and connections to the subway.

Regardless to what transpires in future years, the present PABT terminal (like the Lincoln Tunnel) is woefully inadequate, and something will indeed have to happen, on a large scale, to relieve facilities and infrastructure that has been overtaxed for too many years now.

"NYO"

(sidenote: How many towing companies, aside from MORAN and McALLISTER operate in the harbor today?

Years ago, I remember a Staten Island-based towing company, I think the name was something like "TURCERAMO" (cannot recall the name correctly at the moment): i remember their tugs being orange)
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Q65A



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Years ago, I remember a Staten Island-based towing company, I think the name was something like "TURCERAMO" (cannot recall the name correctly at the moment): i remember their tugs being orange)"
Hi NYO 2629! Turecamo now is part of Moran. If you like tugs, check out the Moran website. They have a great magazine called Towline (how surprising Smile ) that covers their operations in great detail.
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Q65A



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a link to Moran's Towline e-magazines:
https://www.morantug.com/site/#/current_issues
Enjoy!
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q65A:

THANKS for both the correct name of that tug company (I see I wasn't THAT too far off!), and also, for telling me that company is now part of MORAN...did not know this!

I am CERTAINLY going to enjoy going through the MORAN site later; I grew up loving harbor craft such as tugs and ferries, as well as, of course, buses, subways, streetcars, and railroads! Wink

"NYO"

BTW:

I STILL have this semi-sharp memory of being QUITE young, and being down at the Hoboken Terminal (Erie-Lackawanna) with my mother, outside the ferry terminal area.

At the PA pier nearest to the terminal, I STILL remember MACKS being loaded onto a freighter with boom cranes (I THINK these buses were C-47's)

I have NO IDEA where they were headed to; these were obviously second hand buses; way back then, MACKS of various models were still commonplace, everyday buses in my area (this had to be about 1961 or so).....

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....speaking of harbor craft and buses:

Until the 1960's, ancient sidewheel ferryboats served the long-established "WOOLWICH FREE FERRY", which crossed the Thames in London (modern vessels are in use today)

I've seen many old photos showing buses on board these old boats, crossing the river; these vessels were unusual for ferryboats, as vehicles were carried on the upper deck, and basically, more or less parked helter-skelter, instead of the orderly lines that were commonplace here on vehicular ferries.

I could have taken some WONDERFUL photos of these vintage British buses/coaches on board these antiquated (and MOST unusual-looking) sidewheel ferries, some 60-odd years back!

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the new PABT opened in 1950, the only "conglomerate" carrier, if you will, to use the new, sleek facility was Public Service; this was, of course, three decades before NJT became the undisputed "King Of The Hill", and the vast majority of "indy" carriers from New Jersey disappeared forever, as they were swallowed up by the new agency.

I well recall the rebuilding of the terminal in 1980, at the time my dad had passed away (July); that renovation/expansion, IMHO, took away all of the distinctive the stylish contours and design of the original 1950 terminal.

As the years went on, even the few vestiges of the old days that remained finally vanished; now, the terminal was more atkin to a shopping mall/airport; the streamlined facade on 8th Avenue became but a memory, and the new facade left MUCH to be desired (UGHHH!!!)

Recall, also, that when the PABT opened in 1950, many thousands of New Jersey commuters commuted into the city via several railroads that were then in operation in the Garden State, including the NYC (West Shore Division), NYS&W, the DL&W, the ERIE, the PRR, and the CNJ, using either the railroad-operated ferryboats or the H&M (PATH) tubes to cross over into Manhattan.

(NYS&W commuters to Midtown used, until the summer of 1966, an across the platform transfer to buses into the PABT, at "SUSQUEHANNA TRANSFER , just outside the Lincoln Tunnel entrances.

Today, the face of trans-Hudson today is quite different that it was a half-century ago; commuters using mass transit to enter the city now can use NJT's MidTown Direct trains, NY Waterway ferries, and, of course, the time-honored "tubes".

Several ERIE-LACKAWANNA lines that once carried commuters into the Hoboken terminal (Northern Branch, Sussex Branch, NY&GL, Caldwell branch) lost their commuter trains in late 1966; how valuable these rail lines would be today to the masses of harried and hassled trans-Hudson commuters!

When the third tube of the Lincoln Tunnel opened to traffic about 1957, it was thought that it would alleviate a lot of congestion......it did.....for a while.

"Back to Square One"..........

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That the present PABT/Lincoln Tunnel issues represent gridlock personified, it will be interesting indeed to see just WHAT is (eventually) going to be done to alleviate the current nightmare, HOW MUCH it is going to cost, and WHEN will such monumental projects ever get beyond the talking stage......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting "back to the future" concept.......

Imagine, if you will, if the designers, planners, and architects of the original PABT were able to hitch a ride on some forward-thinking scientist's time machine, and travel to the far, distant future (2019) and spent a day observing the current PABT/Lincoln Tunnel gridlock, before heading back to the late 1940's.

It would be interesting (to say the least!) to see just how many changes they would have incorporated into the new PABT, after they had a glimpse of the future........ Shocked

"NYO"
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