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What does the future hold for the PABT?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

N4 Jamaica wrote:
Sometime I ought get a blank map of the counties of New Jersey and try to learn which areas have high numbers of daily commuters to Manhattan. There might be some surprises in this information because jobs do exist in Hudson and Bergen Counties. Having done that, it might be interesting to see how many make the trip by rail or by bus.
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Among my claims or theories would be that a one-seat ride is favored. I don't know whether hiking through Secaucus Transfer and awaiting a second train shifts the options towards a single-seat ride on a bus in Lincoln Tunnel traffic.


Joe:

One-seat rides have always been the most desirable, whether by bus or rail.

That was one reason that the NYW&B folded in 1937; commuters did not like the fact that, in order to travel into Manhattan, they either had to transfer to the 3rd Avenue El, or the IRT subway at E. 180th St.

Too, the "Westchester's" parent, the New Haven, ran directly into Grand Central, requiring no transfer to those who worked in the Grand central area (too, the NYC also ran direct into GCT)

Recall, also, back in the day, when bus companies like PSNJ and DE CAMP (among others) used "parlor coaches" on some of the longest commute runs, to give riders a bit more "de luxe" treatment.

Back in the old days, the greater Jersey City/Hoboken area still had a substantial industrial base; Bayonne, also had companies that no longer exist.

Many, of course, used any of a number of bus lines to reach their jobs; also, the H&M/PATH.

Through the 60's, Newark also had many industries (served by several railroads) and many of the workers used either the buses or the trains 9also, the #7 City Subway line) for their commutes.

In ANY instance (then and now) a ONE SEAT ride (be it by rail or by bus) is always preferable to a commute that requires a transfer where a connecting train (or bus) either shows up late, or does not show up at all.

Too, remember when downtown Newark still boasted several big downtown department stores (BAMBERGERS, S. KLEIN, HAHNE & CO., etc); all of these stores not only had many employees who commuted via mass transit, but also, many shoppers as well, who used transit.

I always found it ironic that, years after the Aldene Plan of 1967 rerouted CNJ commuter trains away from the Jersey City ferry terminal, NJT began running trains off of the Raritan Valley line (ex-CNJ) and the NJCL (ex-NY&LB) into Hoboken.

Suddenly, running commuter trains to the waterfront was "in" again.

Remember, too, when New York-bound rail commuters in New Jersey had their trans-Hudson ferry fares included in their rail commutation tickets; after Aldene in 1967, CNJ commuters now had to transfer to the PATH tubes at Newark, and also pay an additional fare (30 cents at the time)

"NYO"
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N4 Jamaica




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote: Remember, too, when New York-bound rail commuters in New Jersey had their trans-Hudson ferry fares included in their rail commutation tickets; after Aldene in 1967, CNJ commuters now had to transfer to the PATH tubes at Newark, and also pay an additional fare (30 cents at the time)
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My memory is a bit different. I recall the railroad ferries as free, but with later attempts to charge fares.
CNJ - When someone landed at Communipaw, there was a long hike to Jersey City. The location thwarted freeloaders.
Erie - I don't recall any ticket inspection boarding the boat either way.
Lackawanna - With Hoboken just outside the gates, the railroad had tremendous motivation to collect fares, but I recall only surging crowds.
West Shore and O & W -- That's where I recall a 25 cent ferry fare imposed in later years, as too many ferry riders were heading for the hill-climbing buses or streetcars.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe:

I also remember the ferry turnstiles at Hoboken, at the foot of the twin staircases leading up to the upper ferry concourse from the main waiting room, back in the 60's.

The CNJ commuters, after ALDENE, not only no longer had a free ferry crossing to Liberty St., but they also now had to fight there way into crowded PATH cars; many downtown commuters stood in cramped cars for nearly 20 minutes, until the train reached Hudson Terminal.

With the ferries, you commuted aboard a boat that had a capacity of roughly 1800 passengers, plus, could enjoy an "outdoor" commute during nice weather.

Prior to the CNJ terminal closing down, I recall only one local bus line serving the station, CENTRAL AVENUE (this was the bus line that Mom and I used to reach the terminal from Union City)............

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....just going a bit "off track" here, recall, that, for many years, a double fare was charged for the IND Rockaway line (there were also special tokens, I recall)

This double fare lasted between 1956 through 1975; however, a "premium" fare was instituted on the Rockaway line in 1978......

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The desire for a "one seat ride", also kills the most obvious solution to the overcrowded PABT.
The relocation to the Meadowlands, and then extension of one or more NYC subway lines (L or 7 or new ones), to take everyone into the city.

Actually, since a large proportion of PABT commuter's already transfer to the subway, it might prove viable. Especially if they offer a free or reduced transfer between the commuter buses and the subway...
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
The desire for a "one seat ride", also kills the most obvious solution to the overcrowded PABT.
The relocation to the Meadowlands, and then extension of one or more NYC subway lines (L or 7 or new ones), to take everyone into the city.

Actually, since a large proportion of PABT commuter's already transfer to the subway, it might prove viable. Especially if they offer a free or reduced transfer between the commuter buses and the subway...


traildriver:

Good points, as always!

Recall when the GWB opened in 1932; then, as now, the vast majority of bus commuters did not work in that area, but thronged onto the then-new IND 8th AVENUE subway for the remainder of their trip into either midtown or lower Manhattan.

Talking about one-seat rides, back in the 70's, there were plans to extend PATH into several "bedroom" communities, via CNJ rails.

Had this plan ever became a reality, CNJ-area commuters would have, for the first time, enjoyed a one-seat ride into lower Manhattan (the WTC terminal, by that time)

Today, however, one-seat "Midtown Direct" trains now operate into Manhattan, eliminating any transfers to the PATH tubes at Newark or Hoboken (or to Waterway Ferries at Hoboken).....

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When they bring former Erie NJT trains into Penn Station, NY, then I will be impressed...they could if they'd use the ALP-45DP's...
Then you could have a one seat train ride from NYC to Port Jervis... Cool
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
When they bring former Erie NJT trains into Penn Station, NY, then I will be impressed...they could if they'd use the ALP-45DP's...
Then you could have a one seat train ride from NYC to Port Jervis... Cool


traildriver:

I guess great minds DO think alike! Wink

I have thought the SAME thing many times over the years.

You mentioned the ERIE; the earliest ERIE Stillwells (which were still in service when I was a kid) were built with end porthole windows (the same as the STILLWELL-built NYW&B cars) for motormen, and also, with provisions for installing electrical gear at some future time.

There had been plans then to electrify the ERIE's commuter lines out of Pavonia Avenue (the CNJ also had thought of electrifying their suburban lines, in the late 20's and early 30's)

Years ago, online, I recall reading about a VERY ambitious and massive plan, that would have called for the electrification of the ERIE and CNJ commuter lines, and then, via a new set of tunnels under the North (Hudson) River, had the trains run directly to a new underground suburban train terminal in lower Manhattan; I saw a few plans (also online) long ago; it looked like a Class One version of the H&M's Hudson Terminal)

DL&W commuter trains (then themselves being electrified) would have also run to this new lower Manhattan facility.

One wonders what the face of rail commutation in the New York area would have been like today, if this plan ever became a reality......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further on "one-seat" rides.......

Until 1949 passengers riding LEHIGH VALLEY TRANSIT's "Liberty Bell Route" cars enjoyed a one-seat ride to 69th St. terminal (Upper Darby); most passengers transferred there to the MARKET-FRANKFORD El to reach downtown Philadelphia.

LVT cars, to reach 69th St., used the rails of the P&W (today SEPTA's Norristown High Speed Line) between Norristown and Upper Darby (69th St.)

Then, in 1949, the LVT abandoned through service to 69th St., entailing a transfer at Norristown to a P&W train.

With the transfer to the El at 69th St., the die-hard LVT commuters who remained loyal to the "Liberty Bell" cars NOW had to pay THREE fares EACH way; small wonder that most LVT customers began using the more convenient and more direct replacement buses.......

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYO--
That's a good example. Another is when the government took over the operation of the railroads during the WW I era, and B&O trains came into Penn Station, NY. A short time later, PRR kicked them out. Since PRR partially owned the LVRR, they let them stay much longer...
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
NYO--
That's a good example. Another is when the government took over the operation of the railroads during the WW I era, and B&O trains came into Penn Station, NY. A short time later, PRR kicked them out. Since PRR partially owned the LVRR, they let them stay much longer...


traildriver:

Prior to WW1, the CNJ's Jersey City terminal served the CNJ, the LV, the B&O, and the RDG.

After the LV got booted from the CNJ terminal, and then began running into Manhattan via the PRR, the LV still continued to operate gas-electric "doodlebug" trains out of the PRR's Exchange Place station.

As a kid, I still remember an old LV sign at the old H&M/PATH station concourse at Journal Square, just above a long-closed ticket office.

This arrangement lasted in the 30's, when the few remaining LV doodlebug runs were shifted to the LV's float bridge yard, across Johnston Avenue from the CNJ's ferry terminal ("open air, bare bones" terminal, to say the least!)

The LV ended those few local doodlebug runs out of Jersey City not long after the War.

Interestingly, I've seen color photos from the 1950's, showing the location in Newark where LV power was swapped for GG-1's for the run into Manhattan; at that time, a large PSNJ bus yard was located there, besides the tracks...... Old Looks galore!

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYO...At first the LV and PRR swap of power occurred at Manhattan Transfer in Harrison, later, when AC power replaced DC power, they swapped near Hunter Tower...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
NYO...At first the LV and PRR swap of power occurred at Manhattan Transfer in Harrison, later, when AC power replaced DC power, they swapped near Hunter Tower...


traildriver:

Right you are!

That was indeed back in the days of PRR DC third rail and those hulking, side-rod clanking, powerful DD-1's!

There was, also, an interest track set-up at Manhattan Transfer, regarding the H&M.

This "gauntlet" arrangement allowed the narrow H&M cars (then jointly owned with the PRR; these were the MP-38 "Red McAdoos") to load/unload at the same platforms used by the wider PRR equipment.

Many, many years ago, there were also "joint service" expresses from Newark that bypassed Journal Square and ran non-stop to Hudson Terminal; these trains used a "run around" track to bypass Journal Square.

In 1937, the H&M "joint service" trains were re-routed from the old Park Place (Newark) terminal, and shifted into the new 1935 Penn Station.

That same year, PSNJ extended the City Subway beyond the original downtown terminal at Broad St. (now Military Park) to Penn Station, allowing the streetcars of several subway-surface lines to make direct connections with the PRR, LV, and the H&M........

"NYO"
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N4 Jamaica




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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People that read me on this BusTalk site realize that my memory can be mistaken. However, let me narrate again something that might be faulty.
In the 1940's, if Newark was our goal, we would never pay the high fare out of New York Penn Station. Dad would use Hudson Terminal, where large elevators would drop us to a mezzanine. I'm fairly certain that the window clerk that sold us Newark tickets could have sold us Philadelphia or Chicago or beyond. The Newark tickets were standard small railroad tickets. At the top of the stair to the platform, a checker would inspect them and maybe punch them. I think there were turnstiles for Jersey City and Hoboken passengers. For a while I kept old H&M tokens.
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Anyhow, west of Journal Square a Pennsy conductor would start at the head end (where we were, obviously), punch and retain our tickets for Newark. The conductor would then walk the train.
Eastbound at Newark, one bought the Pennsy ticket at a window in the concourse.
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One summer in the early 1950's, I went to Newark on my own. As I stood on line to buy a ticket to Manhattan, a man offered me the last of his multi-trip commutation ticket to Penn Station. I went to the platform for Penn Station service, used the ticket and retained it after the punch. I showed it to Dad, who noted that the F was punched, and the ticket checker ignored the use of a lady's ticket by a high school kid.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe:

GREAT memories.......thanks for sharing!

When I was a kid, back in the 60's, I do remember PRR ticket windows at the old Hudson Terminal concourse; there were also, of course, token booths for "regular" H&M/PATH riders.

When Mom and I went out to Newark (we'd take a #1 NHBL bus from Union City to Journal Square, about a 15 minute ride) to either ride the City Subway PCC's, or shop at "Bam's" (Bambergers), we'd bypass the token booths we normally would use when going into New York (usually 33rd St.), and Mom would buy tickets at the old PRR ticket window.

Coming back from Newark, I can remember Mom buying return "joint service" tickets on the ground level concourse, just off the lofty Art Deco waiting room.

"Joint Service" PRR/PATH operation ended in 1967, when the Aldene plan went into effect; fences and turnstiles were then erected around the eastbound PATH platform at Penn Station, and new rapid transit-type signals replaced the old PRR position lights.

The old "joint service" line then became a pure PATH operation.......

"NYO"
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