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St. George bus platforms, etc.......
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Posts: 2438
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Here's two nostalgic mid-1950's photos showing ex-SIRT ME-1 cars at the BMT's 39th St. yard, surrounded by a seemingly-endless sea of Old Looks....... Wink

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6761

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75772

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)


I wonder if they ever ran on the BMT with those RR Headlights on? Imagine how passengers waiting on a subway platform would react the first time one of them came around a curve into view, with the light blazing... Surprised Surprised
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

See:

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6756

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?112794

(courtesy: nycsubway.org

The ex-SIRT motor cars had their big railroad-style headlights removed, prior to entering revenue service (note photos)

Subway-style "Axiflow" fans were installed in the the cars, and metal route plates, salvaged from scrapped BMT elevated cars, were also installed.

The rattan seating was replaced with leather, and these flip-over seats were bolted into position, requiring half the passengers to ride backwards.

The motor cars served various BMT lines for only several years; the last being retired about 1961.

The ex-SIRT trailers, however, were never used in subway service; they were converted into yard offices and work cars........

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

I know you'll indeed appreciate this rare photo of some of the ex-SIRT ME-1's being floated over to "Tee-Yay" rails from Staten Island, here escorted by a classic, tall-stacked, steam tugboat, then quite commonplace in New York Harbor....Wink

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?87049

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ex-SIRT ME-1 cars, after refurbishment at the BMT's shops, operated on the following lines:

FRANKLIN AVENUE SHUTTLE

CULVER-NASSAU

WEST END-NASSAU LOCAL

None ever operated on such lines as the Sea Beach or the Canarsie-14th St. local.

Recall, also, that, by the early 60's, new cars were entering service on the BMT (R-27/R-30), and the oldest Standards began to disappear.

It was no surprise that the "oddball" ME-1's would, themselves, soon be history.

Interestingly, the ex-SIRT trains had been originally purchased for conversion into revenue collection cars.

However, this plan panned out.

Source: "NEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS" (Gene Sansone)


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are two late-1950's photos of ex-SIRT cars operating on the BMT's since defunct Culver Shuttle.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6766

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6767

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While discussing the old SIRT ME-1s, it is important to recall that they had been influenced (at least partially) by the BRT/BMT's "A-B" Standards (although, they had IRT-style vestibules and commuter-style flipover seating)

It had been thought that, once on "Tee-Yay" rails, that the ex-SIRT cars would be able to MU with the Standards; this, of course, was false, as the two different types were incompatible for MU service.

This was due mainly to the different braking systems of the two types of cars......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's "Dangerfield" #4092 laying over at St. George, back in 1978.

I'm curious if the bus "control tower" (seen here) is still in use, or, at least, is still intact......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154448

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
While discussing the old SIRT ME-1s, it is important to recall that they had been influenced (at least partially) by the BRT/BMT's "A-B" Standards (although, they had IRT-style vestibules and commuter-style flipover seating)

It had been thought that, once on "Tee-Yay" rails, that the ex-SIRT cars would be able to MU with the Standards; this, of course, was false, as the two different types were incompatible for MU service.

This was due mainly to the different braking systems of the two types of cars......

"NYO"

When the SIRT electrified in the 1920's, they consciously adopted the specs of the BMT in terms of third-rail placing (centers 27.5625" from the track rail gauge and 3.5" above it) and what type of rails (100 lb. ARA-B for track, 150 lb. NMC for third rail), being as they anticipated a tunnel connection from Brooklyn (via the BMT Fourth Avenue line) to Staten Island on which the kibosh was put by then-Mayor John Hylan (no doubt after whom Hylan Boulevard in SI was named). One difference: The ends of wooden ties where third rails were placed, were 61" from the track center on the post-Dual Contracts routes (IRT, BMT, IND), and 63" on SIRT trackage.

By contrast, the H&M (now PATH; no relation to the clothing chain) used IRT specs for third rail placement - third rail centers 26" from track rail gauge and 4" above it.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

I've been fascinated with the SIRT ever since my long-ago childhood; Mom and I took many rides on the SIRT, back in the days of ME-1's, grade crossings, and wooden station houses (I still remember the ferry that operated between Tottenville and Perth Amboy, then operated by "SUNRISE FERRIES"; the SIRT operated this line until 1948 with ancient sidewheel boats)

It is ironic that, even though the ME-1's were, in part, influenced by BMT's "Standards", they featured IRT-style vestibles, and trolley-style deck roofs.

Recall, also, the SIRT began experiencing a shortage of rolling stock after a group of ME-1's were sold to the "Tee-Yay" in 1953 for BMT service, after passenger service to South Beach and Arlington were abandoned.

Then, in 1962, several more cars were lost when a blaze struck the Clifton shops.

In the 60's, there were several attempts to "send help" to the roster-stricken SIRT, via surplus BMT Standards from the "Tee-Yay" (by this time, the SIRT cars purchased by the "Tee-Yay" had already been OOS for some years), but, too many obstacles stood in the way.

Had the tunnel under the Narrows been built, linking the SIRT to the BMT's 4th Avenue line, it would have been interesting to see if SIRT crews handled the trains all the way from Staten Island into Chambers St. (then a major terminal), or, have a BMT crew take over from the SIRT men at 59th St. (Brooklyn)

Interestingly, way back in the day, the Rockaway line was pretty much regarded as the "Tee-Yay's" FOURTH subway division; through trains from Manhattan to Rockaway changed crews at Euclid Avenue.

The ME-1's, also, reflected their "suburban commuter" status, as, like the standard main-line commuter coaches of that era, they featured walk-over seats, unlike the fixed seats of the Standards.

The ME-1's also had subway-type standee straps; the old Illinois Central MU's of the mid-1920's, like the SIRT cars, also featured standee straps and pantograph gates at the car ends, as well as air-operated sliding doors, very rare for suburban commuter equipment........

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ME-1's were built by Standard Steel, which later merged with Pullman to become Pullman-Standard. Didn't Standard build at least some NYC subway cars pre-merger?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
The ME-1's were built by Standard Steel, which later merged with Pullman to become Pullman-Standard. Didn't Standard build at least some NYC subway cars pre-merger?


W.B.:

Just consulted Brian Cudahy's "UNDER THE SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK":

STANDARD built a group of "Hi-V" motors for the INTERBOROUGH, between 1910 and 1911.

According to the tables in the Cudahy book*, no other "Standard"-built cars ran in the subways; PULLMAN built all of the "Lo-V" fleet, from 1915 through 1922.

The last "Lo-V's" of the 1920's were built by ACF, in 1925 (most H&M "Black cars" were also built by ACF, the others by PRESSED STEEL).....

*(The prewar BMT subway cars were all built by PRESSED STEEL and ACF)

"NYO"

["INTERBOROUGH LINES"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the SIRT's ME-1's were new, there were 100 cars in the fleet; 90 motor cars and 10 trailers.

Like the "Standards", the ME-1's also had drop seats for use during rush hours.

In 1953, 30 ME-1's where floated over to Brooklyn (25 motors and five trailers)

None of the trailers were ever used in revenue service; they were converted into yard offices/storage sheds at several BMT yards.

Now, finally (although for only a few years) ME-1's were operating on BMT rails; to this day, there is still no subway tunnel under the Narrows, and, most likely, never will be.......

"NYO"

["RIDE THE RAPID"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marker lights.......

Like the BRT/BMT "Standards", the SIRT's ME-1's* were equipped with marker lights; like those on the "Standards", these lights were recessed into the ends of the roof monitors (the H&M cars were the first rapid transit cars to have this feature, beginning with the "A" Class cars of 1908)

The IRT's rolling stock utilized old-fashioned "railroad"-style marker lights for decades; the first IRT cars to feature modern, recessed markers were the 1938 "WF" cars.

We know, of course, that, over the decades, the marker light color combinations were quite complex on the IRT/BMT/IND.

I have yet to learn what colors were used for the SIRT's markers; as there was only the main line to Tottenville, the branch to South Beach, and the North Shore line to Arlington, it would seem that markers would have been fairly redundant, except, perhaps, to distinguish between locals and expresses.

Remember, also, that until the old St. George terminal burned down in 1946, there were two interlocking towers in use at the terminal.

One was for the Tottenville and South Beach trains; the other, for Arlington trains.

A new tower replaced the old when the new terminal complex opened.

All SIRT operations were now "consolidated", and only one tower was required for train movements.

After 1953, only the Tottenville trains remained in operation.

There were, for many years, rush-hour expresses to Great Kills; after passengers were unloaded, the trains would switch over to the St. George-bound track, change ends, and deadhead back to St. George, to load another influx of rush hour passengers, arriving on the ferries.

This was also done to get needed equipment back to St. George as quickly as possible, due to the acute shortage of rolling stock.

Another tower was built into the eastbound station house at Clifton; this controlled trains on the South Beach line.

Through the 1980's, this long-abandoned tower remained in place, until it was finally removed.....

"NYO"

*Interestingly, the R-44's (which replaced the old ME-1's circa-1973) are designated "ME-2".......


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:56 am; edited 3 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in 1964, we see an off-hour SIRT train clattering through the switches at St. George; the "new" interlocking tower is on the extreme left......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?43699
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This rare photo was taken at St. George in the late 1940's, during construction of the new terminal.

The one-car train is, more than likely, a South Beach train.

Note the original interlocking tower (which, somehow, survived the massive 1946 fire), and the new slips for the 69th St. ferries, which operated until late 1964...........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?21937

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This photo from 1958 shows a Tottenville-bound train at Clifton; note the abandoned tower, which, as mentioned earlier, controlled movements on the South Beach line until 1953.........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?115343

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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