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St. George bus platforms, etc.......
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think, also, of the ME-1's being designed as articulated units, like the BMT's "D"-type "Triplex" units, which also debuted in 1925.

As one "D"-type was virtually a three-car train unto itself, it is not all that difficult to image a "Triplex" unit running on Staten Island rails.

The one advantage the ME-1's would have had over any articulated unit, was that, during off-peak hours, trains could easily be reduced in length, to one or two cars.

The "Triplex" units were retired in 1965 (with still a lot of "pep" left in them, from what I read), so, again, it is not all that difficult to picture at least some units going over to the SIRT.

BMT's nearly indestructable "Triplex" cars were OOS by 1965; the ME-1's, nearly a decade later..................

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Now, consider Mr. McAdoo's H&M; here was an "upstart" rapid transit line from New Jersey that had STRONG connections to the "Standard Railroad Of The World" (the PRR)

Yet in the tunnel dimensions and car widths/lengths, the H&M kept after the IRT (wasn't Frank Hedley's brother at one point an H&M official?). Even the positioning of the third rail in relation to track rail was IRT-inspired (top of third rail 4" from top of track rail, third rail center 26" from track rail gauge). To this day, on curves especially, riding on PATH is far more claustrophobic than, say, the "speedy" IND.
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Think, also, of the ME-1's being designed as articulated units, like the BMT's "D"-type "Triplex" units, which also debuted in 1925.

As one "D"-type was virtually a three-car train unto itself, it is not all that difficult to image a "Triplex" unit running on Staten Island rails.

The one advantage the ME-1's would have had over any articulated unit, was that, during off-peak hours, trains could easily be reduced in length, to one or two cars.

The "Triplex" units were retired in 1965 (with still a lot of "pep" left in them, from what I read), so, again, it is not all that difficult to picture at least some units going over to the SIRT.

BMT's nearly indestructable "Triplex" cars were OOS by 1965; the ME-1's, nearly a decade later..................

"NYO"

But then, the FRA wouldn't have approved, no?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Now, consider Mr. McAdoo's H&M; here was an "upstart" rapid transit line from New Jersey that had STRONG connections to the "Standard Railroad Of The World" (the PRR)

Yet in the tunnel dimensions and car widths/lengths, the H&M kept after the IRT (wasn't Frank Hedley's brother at one point an H&M official?). Even the positioning of the third rail in relation to track rail was IRT-inspired (top of third rail 4" from top of track rail, third rail center 26" from track rail gauge). To this day, on curves especially, riding on PATH is far more claustrophobic than, say, the "speedy" IND.


W.B.:

The following is from Stan Fischler's excellent :THE SUBWAY" (a much more in-depth, second-edition of "UPTOWN,DOWNTOWN"......

".....the tiny, musty-smelling tunnels have given the Hudson Tubes a surreal look ever since the line linking New York and New Jersey opened in 1908.....
"
"......curves that seem to defy passage snake through Manhattan and New Jersey......."

".......the omnipresent S-curves, 90-degree turns, and cross-crossing trackage........."

When Your's Truly was still a small lad, I well remember riding the old "Black cars" with Mom, back when the end train doors were kept open between cars were kept open, during the warm months

Man, WHAT FUN, looking down the car and watching the train slither, snake, twist, and SCREECH through the tight, twisting tubes; during all the years I commuted into Manhattan, I would stand transfixed at the RFW and watch the old H&M signals flash by, and marvel at the cast-iron rings of the tubes themselves.

Some motormen would use their "brights" in between stations in the tunnels, and my sharp eyes could pick out the long-disconnected incandescent light fixtures on the tunnel walls (these ALWAYS fascinated me from my earliest days, both on the "Tubes and the subways)

The light bulbs flashing by the car windows always reminded me of darting birds or illuminated arrows!

Alas, "The Tubes" has lost so much of its charm; no more RFW's, no more being able to play "second motormen", to0 much "hi tech".

I have not ridden the Tubes or the subways since I retired in early 2004.

I used to love, at the beginning of a rush hour (on a day off from work) standing at the eastern end of the platform at Grove St. ("GROVE-HENDERSON" in my day) and watch the steady parade of trains descending from the old Henderson yards enter the station, travel to just beyond the platform, change ends, and then re-enter the station, heading towards either the WTC or 33rd St., to pick up the home-bound crowds.

That yard dated back to 1911 and was closed in the early 1990's; today, the old tunnel leading up to the street-level yard is sealed off, and the site of the yard is now totally built over.

I am MORE than grateful for my many many decades of memories, for certain..........

"NYO"

["HUDSON RAPID TUBES: SWIFT! SAFE! SURE!"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Think, also, of the ME-1's being designed as articulated units, like the BMT's "D"-type "Triplex" units, which also debuted in 1925.

As one "D"-type was virtually a three-car train unto itself, it is not all that difficult to image a "Triplex" unit running on Staten Island rails.

The one advantage the ME-1's would have had over any articulated unit, was that, during off-peak hours, trains could easily be reduced in length, to one or two cars.

The "Triplex" units were retired in 1965 (with still a lot of "pep" left in them, from what I read), so, again, it is not all that difficult to picture at least some units going over to the SIRT.

BMT's nearly indestructable "Triplex" cars were OOS by 1965; the ME-1's, nearly a decade later..................

"NYO"

But then, the FRA wouldn't have approved, no?


W.B.:

Recall, for decades, the H&M "joint service" trains literally shared the rails with PRR freights (and, until late 1961, commuter trains to and from Exchange Place)

The motormen on this line also had to also pass a PRR rulebook examination.

Smashboards were once placed at key locations, to avoid having PRR engines accidentely venture onto tight trackage reserved the shorter, narrower H&M/PATH cars.

After the PRR began using position lights in the late 1930's, the old MP-38's ("D"-class) cars were equipped with cab signalling; ditto the "MP-52/"K" cars of 1958.

And, of course, SIRT shared the rails with freights of parent B&O.....

"NYO"

["HUDSON TUBES-TRAINS TO NEW YORK"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One look at this timeless circa-1958 photo (west of Journal Square) SHOUTS that that this "lowly" rapid transit train is indeed traveling along the "Standard Railroad Of The World"! Wink

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?72570

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another reminder of a "Class One" railroad on Staten Island, many decades ago......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?88094

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?62988

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out all of the classic "Fallen Flags" boxcars crowding the background in this long-ago (1973) photo snapped at St. George.

Hard to believe that, like the old ME-1's, none of those long-established railroads exists today.

Note, too, the massive aircraft carriers docked at the old (now closed) Military Ocean Terminal in Bayonne (US NAVY Supply Depot)

This facility, now totally renovated, today serves cruise ships.

Another time, another time.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?45576

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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GojiMet86



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:


W.B.:

The following is from Stan Fischler's excellent :THE SUBWAY" (a much more in-depth, second-edition of "UPTOWN,DOWNTOWN"......

".....the tiny, musty-smelling tunnels have given the Hudson Tubes a surreal look ever since the line linking New York and New Jersey opened in 1908.....
"
["HUDSON RAPID TUBES: SWIFT! SAFE! SURE!"



So I am not imagining things in regards to the smell.

Actually, I've smelled the PATH smell on the NYC subway before, and that's been at High Street on the A/C lines.

I wonder if it has to do with the construction methods.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22282
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GojiMet86 wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:


W.B.:

The following is from Stan Fischler's excellent :THE SUBWAY" (a much more in-depth, second-edition of "UPTOWN,DOWNTOWN"......

".....the tiny, musty-smelling tunnels have given the Hudson Tubes a surreal look ever since the line linking New York and New Jersey opened in 1908.....
"
["HUDSON RAPID TUBES: SWIFT! SAFE! SURE!"



So I am not imagining things in regards to the smell.

Actually, I've smelled the PATH smell on the NYC subway before, and that's been at High Street on the A/C lines.

I wonder if it has to do with the construction methods.


I have read, over the years, that the distinctive aroma of the "Tubes" was/is largely due to the tunnels burrowing through the bed of the Hudson.

In fact, in Brian J. Cudhay's "RAILS UNDER THE MIGHTY HUDSON", the author also mentions what he described as the "characteristic smell" of the H&M.

I was particularly aware of this distinctive, musty aroma (which I've loved since my childhood days) at Hoboken, Pavonia ("Newport" today), Grove St., Exchange Place, and 33rd St. (and, of course, Hudson Terminal, which closed in 1971)

You are correct about High Street; back in the days when * was still railfanning the subways, I often thought that the aroma* at High St. was quite reminiscent of that of the PATH tubes......

"NYO"

*Oddly enough, when the "MERRELL"-class steam ferries were still in operation, I used to think that the aroma of these boats reminded me of the old SIRT ME-1's....even I cannot fathom that one out!


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are three historic views (1909-1971) of the Exchange Place station; until 1961, connections could be made here to PRR commuter trains.

Over the years, this station has been extensively remodeled, and is now virtually unrecognizable from what I was so familiar with for many, many years.

In the old days, I have read comments that this station had the feeling of a typical Underground station in London (I totally agree with this)

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?145912 *

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?21754

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?143846

*This photo was taken when service to Hudson Terminal (via the downtown tubes) began in 1909.

The train is made up of Class "A" cars, which were the original H&M cars.

Note that they have deck roofs (like the IRT's deck roof "Hi-V" cars); these were, in fact, the only H&M cars to have deck roofs.

Interestingly, the Class "A" cars underwent trials on the Second Avenue El, prior to H&M service beginning in 1908.

"NYO"

(photos courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sidenote:

Prior to the original "PA-1" PATH cars entering service in 1965, three of the cars were coupled to a GG-1, for high-speed testing.............

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

H&M/PATH car interiors through the years (the interior of the "PA-5" is quite reminiscent of the MTA's current "NTT" trains)

QUITE a bit of changes, over the decades......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?21826

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?71111

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?127690

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?143158

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And a few PA-1's showing "HUD.TERM" in front (all courtesy nycsubway.org):

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?151579

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?71113

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?88098

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?88102 ('HT' on side)

and out of left field:

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?21780
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To get back to the issue of Staten Island and the buses - when express bus service was first instituted by the 'Tee-Yay' in 1965, the 1963 Fishbowls (I saw a pic of one in the upper 3800's) were selected to transport SI'ers to and from their destinations. That would certainly count as an early example of Fishbowls beginning to make their footprint on that "forgotten borough." Evidently the Macks weren't elegant enough?
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