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GM artics and other industry musings....
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22281
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of GM and bus builders, I always found it interesting how GREYHOUND and GMC were virtually "family"; for many years, especially from the 50's well into the 60's, GREYHOUND was an all GM outfit (4103's, Scenicruisers, 4104's, 4106's); then, more and more, MCI became a bigger and bigger player in the GREYHOUND game.

In fact, by 1971, MCI was "the largest producer of intercity buses in North America" ("GOING THE GREYHOUND WAY"/Robert Gabrick)

Ironically, not too many years earlier, that distinction went to GM.

The several generations of MCI coaches that have now operated for the company through the decades indeed shows that GREYHOUND has been pretty much happy with these big coaches.

Of course, GREYHOUND also operated Eagles; PREVOST coaches, also made their way into the 'Hound's fleet.

MCI's have MORE than pulled their weight at GREYHOUND through the years............ Wink

"NYO"
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
traildriver wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
All:

Just came across this "in-depth" page on the history of GM bus building, the models and variations that were produced over the decades, etc......

"NYO"

http://www.utahrails.net/buses/GM_Coach_Diesel_Division_ttmg.htm


That article I would call more of a 'capsule history', rather than an "in-depth" history.
It did not even touch the main reason for GM exiting the industry...its long battle with the US government over anti-trust laws, stemming from its almost monopoly over the industry for a long period...


traildriver:

Yes, you are indeed correct; however, in my "terminology", that page seemed to go into more detail than others (some pages are truly "slim pickins', very sketchy at best!)

On GM bus history, I have long hoped that some expert in the field would write a truly detailed, concise, and in-depth book on the subject.

Surely, the records, documents, and photos are there.....it just takes someone with both the desire AND (more importantly) the KNOWLEDGE to attempt a grand work of such vast scope.

Of course, at least a few years of TIME would be required to put such a work together.

I, for one, would indeed purchase a copy, if one ever hit the bookstore shelves........Wink

"NYO"


I too would love to see a thorough history of GM Coach....however, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it...it would have to be a "labor of love" for some one to do the research and publish it...it would never be a commercial success due to its extremely limited target audience, unfortunately....
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

I would have to agree with you on this; such an intense project would indeed require at least several years of concise research, not to mention money.

It is easy to see, from the books currently available on GM buses that a lengthy, detailed "one volume" history of GMC, starting with the YELLOW COACH era, would be a tremendous undertaking, to say the least.

However, such a work would be more than worth the money to purchase; this would be a book that, I feel, has long been overdue, from a bus enthusiasts's/historian's point of view.

However, you are quite right in saying that it would have a "limited target audience" , if published; that alone could easily cancel an otherwise worthy literary project.......

"NYO"
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Tiny Tim



Age: 62
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kennedy space center neoplans were not articulated.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22281
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tiny Tim wrote:
The Kennedy space center neoplans were not articulated.


Thanks for the correction; from what I read, the KSC units were articulated.

I see this information was incorrect; thanks again.....

"NYO"
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember vaguely, that Neoplan double decker....Denver's RTD was testing one of their demo's for a few months on the Denver-Boulder route. IIRC,
it was huge...something like 49 feet long, 98" (2.5 meters?) wide, and had four axles...2 in front that steered. I also believe the SCRTD had some of them in use on the El Monte Busway, but not sure of that....
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22281
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
I remember vaguely, that Neoplan double decker....Denver's RTD was testing one of their demo's for a few months on the Denver-Boulder route. IIRC,
it was huge...something like 49 feet long, 98" (2.5 meters?) wide, and had four axles...2 in front that steered. I also believe the SCRTD had some of them in use on the El Monte Busway, but not sure of that....


traildriver:

Even if these monsters had power steering(?) they must have been a BEAST to handle, especially in traffic.

I wonder how how much mileage these buses got?

"NYO"
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did a search of the 'net, and found this forum thread, with some more details about it...be sure to read the second page, with info that even the rear wheels steered at low speeds...
http://hankstruckforum.com/htforum/index.php?topic=22316.0
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
Did a search of the 'net, and found this forum thread, with some more details about it...be sure to read the second page, with info that even the rear wheels steered at low speeds...
http://hankstruckforum.com/htforum/index.php?topic=22316.0


traildriver:

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked

I repeat........

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked

You won't believe this, but I have a plastic friction toy that (clearly) was inspired by this MASSIVE behemoth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shocked Shocked

Thanks again for posting this link....Holy Moley, what a MONSTER of a bus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Very Happy Wink

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you enjoyed it, as I did....about the only thing bigger, if you want to even consider it a 'bus', are those huge 51' long, 16' wide airport 'Plane-mates'... Smile
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22281
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

Sure wish we could see someone photoshop an Old Look and turn it into an articulated(!!) Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Shocked Shocked

"NYO"
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TheDriver




Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 233
Location: America

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
traildriver wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
All:

Just came across this "in-depth" page on the history of GM bus building, the models and variations that were produced over the decades, etc......

"NYO"

http://www.utahrails.net/buses/GM_Coach_Diesel_Division_ttmg.htm


That article I would call more of a 'capsule history', rather than an "in-depth" history.
It did not even touch the main reason for GM exiting the industry...its long battle with the US government over anti-trust laws, stemming from its almost monopoly over the industry for a long period...


traildriver:

Yes, you are indeed correct; however, in my "terminology", that page seemed to go into more detail than others (some pages are truly "slim pickins', very sketchy at best!)

On GM bus history, I have long hoped that some expert in the field would write a truly detailed, concise, and in-depth book on the subject.

Surely, the records, documents, and photos are there.....it just takes someone with both the desire AND (more importantly) the KNOWLEDGE to attempt a grand work of such vast scope.

Of course, at least a few years of TIME would be required to put such a work together.

I, for one, would indeed purchase a copy, if one ever hit the bookstore shelves........Wink

"NYO"



all I can say is that you are right and it takes a lot of time and effort to get the job done. I have done a rough timeline on GM history which included many American car, truck and bus builders. It is not done as it needs a lot of editing for easy reading. I copied and pasted and so context is an issue.
What I have found though is that when America was right so was GM. GM also got lucky in it's efforts to build the modern mouse trap when it came to bus development.
GM being a conglomeration could make things happen too and that is how the GM Diesel was born and was later to be known as Detroit Diesel. Now when GM owned Yellow Coach Dwight Austin allowed GM to use his patented design for a V-drive that allowed GM to build a bus without the big overhang at the rear and to make room for luggage under the bus. GM had a very light bus and when the GM Diesel came out It was a fast and economical bus compared to the competition.
In 1967 the 8V-71 came out and it was the engine that was dominant in GM buses. 1960 the 8V-71 was introduced and was the engine of choice for many bus operators and bus builders, yes Trailways decided that Detroit Diesel was the best engine as far as being light and having an acceptable fuel consumption rating.
The fishbowl bus dominated the bus industry because of it's beauty and efficiency, It had the slide glide front doors and the engine sat in a cradle which enabled bus operators could remove the engine, transmission, muffler and radiator and put a whole new system in about 4 hours.
GM's buses ruled from the 30s on with a monocoque body, it had no frame, air ride suspension and high quality. Lawsuits became a factor in GM's history, 1956 a consent decree signed by GM made engineers design a radically new bus and so a momentum kept GM going even though there seemed to be a push against GM then. That momentum was slowing down and was causing GM to slow down. in 1959 when the fishbowl bus was introduced there was another anti-trust lawsuit was filed. So parts of Euclid was sold. GM began to actually slow down in it's efforts to strive for it's existence. like I say momentum kept it going. The Buffalo bus probably helped it keep going but GM was not trying to perfect it. Yes it had some flaws but by 1980 GM was not trying at all it seemed.
The auto segment was then hanging on by a thread. GM was in trouble.
The fishbowl bus was not being made in America but had to be ordered from GM of Canada if you wanted one. In 1986 the last fishbowl bus was made and I believe that factory workers were doing lousy work and GM was delivering bad product. So GM was out of the heavy truck market and the bus market too as the Detroit Diesel was outlawed and government regulations forced the ADA on GM. I am sure that GM would have gone under if it weren't for some changes in products such as the new pickup truck body which the country fell in love with. Since then GM has only been holding it's own
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TheDriver




Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 233
Location: America

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
traildriver wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
All:

Just came across this "in-depth" page on the history of GM bus building, the models and variations that were produced over the decades, etc......

"NYO"

http://www.utahrails.net/buses/GM_Coach_Diesel_Division_ttmg.htm


That article I would call more of a 'capsule history', rather than an "in-depth" history.
It did not even touch the main reason for GM exiting the industry...its long battle with the US government over anti-trust laws, stemming from its almost monopoly over the industry for a long period...


traildriver:

Yes, you are indeed correct; however, in my "terminology", that page seemed to go into more detail than others (some pages are truly "slim pickins', very sketchy at best!)

On GM bus history, I have long hoped that some expert in the field would write a truly detailed, concise, and in-depth book on the subject.

Surely, the records, documents, and photos are there.....it just takes someone with both the desire AND (more importantly) the KNOWLEDGE to attempt a grand work of such vast scope.

Of course, at least a few years of TIME would be required to put such a work together.

I, for one, would indeed purchase a copy, if one ever hit the bookstore shelves........Wink

"NYO"


I too would love to see a thorough history of GM Coach....however, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it...it would have to be a "labor of love" for some one to do the research and publish it...it would never be a commercial success due to its extremely limited target audience, unfortunately....


I have done a timeline of GM's progress though the years and as a bus fan it included many bus improvements and it is 188 pages long so far and it includes truck and car makes which were also in the same market that GM was in. To do a book I still have a ways to go to understand the changes and developments. I would also like to have pictures so the reader could understand it too.
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TheDriver




Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 233
Location: America

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Speaking of GM and bus builders, I always found it interesting how GREYHOUND and GMC were virtually "family"; for many years, especially from the 50's well into the 60's, GREYHOUND was an all GM outfit (4103's, Scenicruisers, 4104's, 4106's); then, more and more, MCI became a bigger and bigger player in the GREYHOUND game.

In fact, by 1971, MCI was "the largest producer of intercity buses in North America" ("GOING THE GREYHOUND WAY"/Robert Gabrick)

Ironically, not too many years earlier, that distinction went to GM.

The several generations of MCI coaches that have now operated for the company through the decades indeed shows that GREYHOUND has been pretty much happy with these big coaches.

Of course, GREYHOUND also operated Eagles; PREVOST coaches, also made their way into the 'Hound's fleet.

MCI's have MORE than pulled their weight at GREYHOUND through the years............ Wink

"NYO"
In the early days when GM was still perfecting the Yellow Coach, GM Diesel and such Greyhound was struggling. GM bailed Greyhound by buying up stock in Greyhound .I believe that GM owned a large percent of the company There was an agreement made that Greyhound would buy only GM buses. They really had a great thing going but in the early 1950s they were working to convince Congress to allow a 40 foot bus on the highways. This is where the trouble started. The largest GM diesel at the time was the 6-71 and too small for a heavy 40 foot highway bus so GM came up with a poor and untried setup. That bit them in the rear. You have to remember that this was the early 50s and diesel engine development was slow and choices were slim. So they got this contraption with 2 4-71 engines coupled to a gearbox and fluid coupling. It failed miserably and cause a strained relationship between GM and Greyhound. The Scenicruiser was an iconic Greyhound bus but with the labor unions causing the buses to leave the factory either incomplete or not properly done and the issues of untried technology made Greyhound look for an alternative. GM by then had sold off it's holdings in Greyhound, I'm sure because of the possible anti-trust lawsuit that would have come. Greyhound was already using MCI and after the Scenicruiser fiasco Greyhound began to use MCI more and more. The Buffalo bus cause Greyhound to buy GM and such but the writing was on the wall. GM was leaving the bus scene.
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TheDriver




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering what I ought to do with my timeline as I am no writer
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