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Greyhound's suburban services: areas served
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22282
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:06 pm    Post subject: Greyhound's suburban services: areas served Reply with quote

All:

I just recieved my eagerly-awaited copy of "OLD LOOK BUSES: YELLOW COACH AND GM IN THE 40's AND 50's" (William A. Luke and Linda L. Metler), and, to be honest, I STILL have not stopped drooling!! Shocked

Man, what great memories the pics in this book brought back!! Very Happy

What VARIETY was once an integral part of the bus hobby!! Very Happy

Though, of couse, I knew that GREYHOUND was operated extensive suburban services in the East Bay Area, I had no idea that such services were also operated in Canada.

One pic shows an EASTERN CANADIAN GREYHOUND LINES TDM-4509 at the terminal in London, Ontario.

Text states that GREYHOUND offered suburban services in this area until about 1964, when the routes were sold to a local transit company.

There is another photo showing a TDH-4509 of CROWN COACH COMPANY (Joplin, Missouri) that operated to suburban areas south of Kansas City.

Bus is lettered for CROWN, but sports the GREYHOUND running dog on its side.

Did GREYHOUND operate any other suburban services besides the aforementioned?

Though the greater NYC/NJ area was once home to numerous suburban companies, I always wondered why GREYHOUND never at least experimented with suburban services to and from New York.

TRAILWAYS, I know, operated suburban services in Harrisburg (CAPITOL TRAILWAYS), and Kansas City (CONTINENTAL).

Greatly appreciate any and all info....... Very Happy

John
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John -

Your query hardly a "softball"! Two obvious, shorter haul, more "commute" kinds of runs?
Baltimore - Washington via USH-1 (PENNA GL). Norfolk - Williamsburg, VA (RICHMOND GL?)...

Then, the somewhat longer routes, which had fairly frequent "All Stops" LOCAL services.
Examples: Lancaster - Phila. via USH-30 (PENNA GL). Philadelphia - Baltimore via USH-13
& 40 (PENNA GL).

Many other examples abound. Philadelphia - New York via USH-1 & 9? In other areas,
recall many of the routes were earlier interurbans, with bus following substantially similar
services. Ohio and Indiana with many examples...

.......................Vern.......................
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roymanning2000



Age: 75
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

As Vern stated, there were many places where Greyhound operated suburban routes using transit or suburban equipment. Generally, these services were either inherited by acquisition of the previous operator or were a response to increased riding due to suburban growth along intercity routes.

Some of the larger cities included Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Charleston WV, Buffalo, Louisville, Minneapolis, Seattle, Atlanta and Miami. As automobile ownership grew in the fifties and sixties, these routes became marginal or unprofitable and Greyhound sold them off to local operators.

In addition to the cities noted above, there were smaller local operations here and there. For example, Great Lakes Greyhound ran two routes out of Dayton that were part of the purchase of the Cincinnati & Lake Erie bus operation in the late forties. I rode these buses many times in the fifties when I was a kid. In 1958, these were sold, along with the Detroit suburban routes, to American Transit Corporation from St. Louis.

As late as 1967, Greyhound ran local service from Columbus northeast to the community of Westerville. I remember seeing one of the few remaining TDM5108's on this route about that time. This line was sold shortly thereafter to Columbus Transit.

I hope others here can add to this thread. I've always found Greyhound's suburban operations interesting.

Roy
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy -

WOW! Some solid and superb examples. I knew of GLGL use of "Suburban" Jimmies on some routes,
but haven't taken any time to do the research...

Among stranger GL photos I have seen? When Randy had the old Strayhound site up. views of odd,
little GAR WOOD coaches between some (fairly rural) Michigan points...

..........................Vern..............
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roymanning2000



Age: 75
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to Greyhound, a number of Trailways members had local services as well.

Carolina Trailways used TDH4515's and, later, SDM5302 fishbowls on local runs. I believe that was out of Norfolk VA.

Queen City Trailways had suburban runs out of Charlotte using SDM-4501 and SDM-4502 fishbowls. A Queen City subsidiary, Fort Bragg Coach Co., used both old-look and new-look GM's to serve that army base from Fayetteville NC. Queen City later became part of Continental Trailways. Continental had some 40' fishbowls that were used in that area later on.

Another Trailways local operator was Indianapolis & Southeastern which ran service from downtown Indy to the Fort Harrison army base. Technically, this was owned by Fort Harrison Bus Lines, an I&S subsidiary but the buses just said Trailways. They had some TDH-4517's and several models of GM old-looks.

Western New York Motor Lines (Empire Trailways), Adirondack Trailways and Missouri Pacific Trailways also ran suburban trips. Empire had some SDM-4501 fishbowls and the other two used GM old-looks as I recall.

I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

Roy
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy -

That's good. I didn't mention TWYS, as I didn't want to expand scope. There are old photos, up on the 'net, where
QUEEN CITY had some post WWII Twin Coaches. Some other surprises ran around with TWYS colors, too...

....................Vern..........................
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fellows:

Greatly appreciate all of this interesting info on GREYHOUND's old commute runs!

Had no idea they were as widespread as they were......first and foremost, the old East Bay operations come to my mind.......


Thanks again!

John
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timecruncher



Age: 73
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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Location: Louisville, Kentucky

PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greyhound had lots of suburban operations around here. As mentioned above, Charleston, WV had numerous routes even up into the late sixties. The service now operated by Kanahwah Valley Regional Transit Authority out to Elkview, Clenendin and Montgomery (both sides of the river) were all Greyhound routes. What's interesting is that the service levels are not too dissimilar from today on those routes!

Here in Louisville the Fort Knox-Elizabethtown service via US31W was served 24 hours a day with damn near hourly or better service. The service remained strong until the end of the Vietnam conflict when armour training diminished at Fort Knox.

Also, up into the mid to late sixties, there were singular commuter trips along established intercity routes near many cities, all run by Greyhound even after the demise of many suburban carriers. Out of Cincinnati, there were two or three locals that made morning and afternoon rush-hour 'turns' out to Wilmington, OH and Williamstown, KY. Locals out of Lexington, KY served Paris and Mt. Sterling, out of Nashville TN there were up to a dozen "local" trips out to Murfreesboro and Springfield, TN and up to Clarksville, TN and Fort Campbell, KY.

Most of the lesser routes used highway coaches rather than suburban equipment. I never saw suburban equipment in Greyhound service in Louisville even though the Fort Knox service was definitely suburban in nature.

Most of these trips were run (out of Louisville, at least) with venerable PD4103 and PD4104 equipment. In later years, it was not unusual to see PD4501 Scenicruisers and PD4107 Buffaloes running Ft. Knox locals...



Photo shows one of the 4104s heading east on Liberty Street past the Louisville Transit Company general office -- now site of the Commonwealth Convention Center -- on a US42 local run to Cincinnati or possibly one of the locals to Cincinnati via Madison, IN and Carrollton. The date was 1967 or 1968.

timecruncher
Schedulers give you the runs!


Last edited by timecruncher on Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

timecruncher:

Thanks for posting this interesting "trivia" on GREYHIOUND suburban operations......as I had said previously, the only GREYHOUND "commute" operations I knew of were the East Bay operations.

Seems as these old suburban runs were every bit as interesting as the more prestigious "main line runs"!

That 4104 is GORGEOUS!!!! Very Happy Very Happy

John
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timecruncher



Age: 73
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Location: Louisville, Kentucky

PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last really intense commuter service operated by Greyhound that I know of was out of Atlanta to Marietta. The route had all-day service, with 10-15 minute frequencies during peak hours. The west-coast operations by then were migrating to public agencies, Sam Trans and Golden Gate Transit as well as AC Transit.

The Atlanta-Marietta operation was sold outright to a local outfit, and died a painful death in the early seventies when fuel and insurance costs coupled with sprawl and interstate highway construction made the service unprofitable. There were probably other issues as well, but since I don't live in central Georgia, I am unaware of them.

timecruncher
Schedulers give you the runs!
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

timecruncher:

Again, interesting info.....thank you! Very Happy

I can remember a pic in an old issue of BUS WORLD showing retired ex-GREYHOUND Fishbowls (East Bay units), after being replaced with new equipment.

Given the importance of the old East Bay operations out of SF, I would have thought that those routes would have been the last sold by GREYHOUND......

John
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
...Given the importance of the old East Bay operations out of SF, I would have thought that those routes would have been the last sold by GREYHOUND......

John -

Things change. With threat of build of BART, it certainly caused attitude adjustments...
Bonus: No more bickering with the CAL PUC?...

........................Vern.........................
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roymanning2000



Age: 75
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

Greyhound's San Francisco commuter operation was unprofitable for many years and was despised by management. I believe they would have sold it off earlier to just about anybody if a big enough patsy had appeared.

I remember reading an account concerning a fare increase proposal for the commuter routes in the early 60's. At a California PUC hearing, Greyhound officials stated that if the fare increase was not granted, the company stood to lose about a million dollars a year on the commuter service.

In early 60's dollars, that would have been a staggering amount. It probably would have been enough to wipe out a substantial portion of the profits earned by the Western division's intercity routes.

Roy
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy -

Concur. "...And, I was there..." in the Bay Area in the mid 1960s. The CAL PUC, IMHO, had its own offices in Dream Land.
It had the vaguest of understanding of the burdens of scheduled, regular route, common carrier services. Besides that,
too much weight to testimony of whiners and crybabies, who were of noisy claques of some ticket buyers...

Prices of stuff were going up! The vendors simply wanted to be "made whole" in all of it. Easy deal, or it should have been...

..........................Vern........................
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roymanning2000



Age: 75
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timecruncher,

Thanks for the great 4104 photo. I did a lot of Greyhound riding in that time period and most of it was on '04's. They were real workhorses for the 'Hound.

By the way, somewhere on the Internet is a photo or two of the ACF-Brill C44 suburbans that worked the Greyhound suburban services out of Louisville and Nashville in the late forties and early fifties. Being gas buses, I think they were phased out pretty quickly in favor of diesels. Now if I can just remember where those photos are, I'll post a link.

Roy
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