BusTalk

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

As always, appreciate your input and detailed info.

Just curious.........

The "Tee-Yay", in 1964, received its first order of "Dangerfields" (5001-5165); a second order followed in 1965-1966 (5601-5790)

Meanwhile, "stoa" did not receive its first "Dangerfields" until 1970 (4600-4727)

I'm wondering now why the "Tee-Yay" received "Dangerfields" several years before the first were delivered to "stoa", even though I know that "stoa" began taking delivery of Fishbowls (325 TDH-5303's, arriving in 1963) ...........

"NYO"

["OA"]

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

Hats off to you, my friend, for taking the time to post this extensive, highly-informative, and truly "in depth" account of the "Tee-Yay" and "stoa" fleets, especially regarding the humble "Dangerfields".

Take notice, that, in virtually all of our discussions of the "Dangerfields", it becomes quite obvious that these buses were, even when new, NOT receiving any noticeable "respect".

If, then, the "Tee-Yay's and "stoa's" Dangerfields were relegated to the lest prestigious lines, even when they debuted, it seems as though these buses were almost like the proverbial "red-headed stepchild".

Remember, not so long ago, I referred to the humble "Dangerfield" as "The Poor Man's Fishbowl", and "The Fishbowl knock-off"; if these buses were regarded as less a bus than the Fishbowl, then WHY did the "Tee-Yay" and "stoa" even order them?

It would have made more sense, then, to simply keep on ordering GM-built buses.

Recall, also, that the lowly "Dangerfield" was indeed a "minority" bus in a fleet where GM-built buses more than dominated.

Was the City getting a bargain on the "Dangerfields", making them (for the moment, at least) the least-expensive option compared to GM (remember, by that time, MACK was no longer manufacturing buses, so that was another choice that no longer was available)

Remember that the "Borough Bombers", when they were in service for those few brief years, were also very much minorities in the "Em-Tee-Yay's" fleet.

They certainly didn't get much respect, either; however, the "Dangerfields" were certainly NOT known for cracked frames, fires, and other serious issues.........

"NYO"

["FLXIBLE"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

"STRANGE BEDFELLOWS" (Bainbridge & 210 St., 1982).......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?155495

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["M"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

The CTA: Polar opposite to "Noo Yawk"(bus-wise)......

In Chicago, back in the 60's, the CTA was then operating a VERY diverse fleet of buses, a fleet in which the Fishbowls were indeed in the ultra-minority

There were, of course, a good number of "Shermans" (many ex-CMCCo), "Pattons", WHITES, and ACF-BRILLS well into the 1960's (trolley buses continued running until the early 1970's)

In 1961, 150 "Dangerfields" were purchased, along with a like number of Fishbowls, for an "on the job" side-by-side comparison.

However, the CTA would continue to favor "Dangerfields" until the summer of 1972, when the CTA received a massive order of GM's popular T8H-5307A's, followed by additional large numbers of Fishbowls in 1974 and 1976.................

"NYO"

["CTA"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

"GREEN BUS LINES"...........

Here was another "Noo Yawk" company where "Dangerfields" were indeed in the minority.

FLXIBLE supplied only two orders for "Dangerfields" for this operator, with 10 being delivered in 1971, with 10 more being delivered in 1972.

"TRIBORO"

This company took delivery of their first "Dangerfields" during 1964, eventually operating 65 of them (purchased over a period of eight years)..............

"NYO"

["Q22-ROCKAWAYS"]

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

As always, great input!

The following is from "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT BUSES" (Martin):

".........New Look General Motors buses began arriving in 1959. So many new buses were being delivered in the postwar period, that the numbering sequence for the New Look buses started at 1....."

"........the first lot was 190 TDH-5301s, numbered 1 through 190. These buses were initially assigned to Brooklyn, to replace trolleybus lines. These buses went to Queens in 1964........"

Remember, also, that, the C-49-DT ("Pattons") [6210-6317) were delivered during 1956, retiring the remaining C-45-GT's on Staten Island.

As to what old "Bee-oh-Tee" buses were retired as the new "Dangerfields" were arriving, I (not being an expert on the subject) can only hazard a guess.

I'm guessing that the "Dangerfields" replaced at least some of the "square window" Old Looks still in use at that time.

As for Chicago, being that the CTA rostered a massive fleet of postwar TWINS (aka"Oddballs"), it could possibly translate into their favoring the "Dangerfields" over "Gee-Em" buses...............

"NYO"

["FLXIBLE"]



"........

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Sidenote:

The oldest of the "Bee-oh-Tee" Old Looks (aka "Shermans") were the TDH-4507s, and the TDH-5101s (1948); the oldest "Pattons" were the C-45GT's (also delivered in 1948)

The first "Shermans" with paired windows were the TDH-4510's, delivered in 1948. Interesting, that in 1948, the "Bee-oh-Tee" took delivery of "Gee-Ems" with both square windows and paired windows.

This was also the same year that the 1900-1961 series "Pattons" were delivered......

"NYO"

["56-JAMAICA"]

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

Again, you make some very good points.

I, myself, have long wondered what things might have been like had the "Em-Tee-Yay"/"stoa"ordered early model RTS instead of going "gung-ho" with the infamous "Borough Bombers" (GRUMMAN)

Most certainly, the "Bombers", in no way, could even begin to match either the Fishbowl or the "Dangerfield" for rugged construction and reliability.

From: "RAPID TRANSIT SERIES BUSES" (McCausland)

"........private operations in New York City, most notably Green Bus Lines, had been using small numbers of the Series 03 buses, but they heyday of the RTS in New York really began with the Series 04, albeit somewhat accidentally....."

"........the NYCTA had tested a Series 03 in 1979, but, instead, awarded a contract for 837 40' 870As to FLXIBLE, owned at that point by NORTHROP-GRUMMAN. The buses began arriving in New York by early 1980, but they did not last long. What was to happen to the 870's was nothing short of a soap opera....."

This bit I find particularly interesting (regarding the earlier purchases of the "Dangerfields", instead of "Gee-Em" buses......

"........just as any operator was bound by law to purchase buses from the lowest bidder, they too were bound by law to stick with the existing contract. NYCTA would have to prove that their buses were actually defective, thus rendering GRUMMAN unable to sell within the United States......"

".....in the meantime, older NYCTA buses that were in storage, slated for scrapping, were brought out of retirement, and 150 WAMATA buses were borrowed to help ease the equipment shortage crises......"

"NYO"

["B-100"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Sidenote:

Had the "Em-Tee-Yay" and "stoa" decided to go with the RTS right out of the gate, instead of with the "Borough Bombers", the city of "Noo Yawk" would have really been on the RTS bandwagon at an early date, and eliminated the chaotic "Rocky Horror Show"/"Soap Opera" chaos which ensued that GRUMMAN fiasco.

I always thought it odd that the "indy" companies, and NOT the mighty "Em-Tee-Yay", were the first to roster the RTS in the area........

"NYO"

["Rapid Transit Series"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

From: "RAPID TRANSIT SERIES BUSES (McCausland).......

".......GRUMMAN offered to repair the buses at no cost, but the damage was already done.NYCTA cancelled the order, and refused to pay for the last 200 buses of the contract......"

".......GRUMMAN was not happy, as this essentially represented a breach in contract, and the matter quickly went to the courts.,......"

"..........after an insane amount of litigation and bickering within courtrooms, GRUMMAN finally agreed to not only buy back the defective buses, but also, terminate the NYCTA contact. NYCTA then virtually ran over to GM, placing an order for 839 T80-204s........."

"NYO"

["MTA"]

[W.B. Fishbowl]