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Imagine if FACCo had a facility like this!
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WB: Once again I greatly appreciate the detailed and in-depth historical info you always so kindly post here; when Your's Truly was still a young whippersnapper (and that is EONS ago!) I indeed do recall Old Looks and "Pattons" passing through TSQ; though-of-course-I liked the Fishbowls-but-----TSQ (to this fellow anyway) had a different "feel" about it-once the Old Looks and "Pattons" stopped passing through; after all-they were an integral part of the "Crossroads Of The World" for decades being depicted in countless postcards-photos-etc--------------"NYO" (another quick historical question: did any routes eer begin/end at TSQ-or were they all "through" routes? I would guess the latter holds true))
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
WB: Once again I greatly appreciate the detailed and in-depth historical info you always so kindly post here; when Your's Truly was still a young whippersnapper (and that is EONS ago!) I indeed do recall Old Looks and "Pattons" passing through TSQ; though-of-course-I liked the Fishbowls-but-----TSQ (to this fellow anyway) had a different "feel" about it-once the Old Looks and "Pattons" stopped passing through; after all-they were an integral part of the "Crossroads Of The World" for decades being depicted in countless postcards-photos-etc--------------"NYO" (another quick historical question: did any routes eer begin/end at TSQ-or were they all "through" routes? I would guess the latter holds true))

Even before the 2010 service cutbacks, M-104 had a few "short-run" routes that terminated at Times Square. The then-M-3 49th/50th Crosstown (later M27, now M50), from 1971 to 2010, had some runs terminate next to TSQ (or, as I call it, XSQ, the 'X' signifying the multiplication sign a.k.a. "times") at the Port Authority Bus Terminal.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WB: Thanks for this info-------Another thing I was long curious about was SURFACE purchasing the forty TDH-5106s ("the bus with the sign that sticks out in front") in 1959; the reason Your's Truly is asking this is-by 1959-Fishbowls ("Jetsons") could be purchased-but-instead-SURFACE purchased their last Old Looks in '59 (the TDH-5301 "Jetson" Fishbowls would soon be on the property)-------was $$$$$$ the reason why SURFACE purchased Old Looks in '59-instead of Fishbowls? "NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
WB: Thanks for this info-------Another thing I was long curious about was SURFACE purchasing the forty TDH-5106s ("the bus with the sign that sticks out in front") in 1959; the reason Your's Truly is asking this is-by 1959-Fishbowls ("Jetsons") could be purchased-but-instead-SURFACE purchased their last Old Looks in '59 (the TDH-5301 "Jetson" Fishbowls would soon be on the property)-------was $$$$$$ the reason why SURFACE purchased Old Looks in '59-instead of Fishbowls? "NYO"

Surface's sign-that-sticks-out-in-front "Shermans" (serial #'s 1638-1677) were the penultimate TDH-5106's produced, with the 50 to FACL that followed (2645-2694, serial #'s 1678-1727) being the very last "Shermans" of that model ever built, in July 1959. They were ordered because the "Jetson" Fishbowls hadn't begun production yet, the first rolling out of the "Gee-Em" Truck & Coach assembly line in Pontiac in September. (The "Tee-Yay's" first 190 TDH-5301 "Jetsons" [serial #'s 0187-0376] were all built between October and November 1959.)

"Jetson" production was well under way when FACL placed the order for their first 20 of 'em (non-A/C 3101-3110, serial #'s 0714-0723, which amazingly were produced before the 10 A/C units, serial #'s 0724-0733) which were built in January 1960. They arrived in time for a drawing of "Jetsons" passing by on opposite roads of Fifth Avenue to be put on the cover of FACL's annual report for the year ending Dec. 31, 1959. Those 20 "Jetsons" were the last ordered and built in FACL president John E. McCarthy's lifetime (he died June 15, 1960, 5 months before the other 50 FACL units [serial #'s 1294-1343] and 50 for ST [serial #'s 1344-1393] were built in October and arrived in "Noo Yawk" by Nov. 1). In-between those two orders was when the "Tee-Yay's" second "Jetson" order (501-805, serial #'s 0942-1246) were built between July and August; the lower-numbered buses in that batch were the first Manhattanites got their first whiff of "Tee-Yay" Fishbowls of any type.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WB: All quite interesting-to be sure; thanks for "filling Your's Truly in" on this Wink At the risk of repetition here-those unique 5106s were retired far far too soon; at just about 11 years of age-in "Joisey" such buses would then be considered "just well broken in"------an 11 year-old bus was considered pretty new when you think of WHITE 798's/20-year old Old Looks/and assorted prewar buses still running here in "Joisey" through a good chunk of the 60's-------also-look at the prewar ex-FACCo YELLOWS still running on crosstown routes into the early 1960's-----all exceeding TWENTY YEARS of age-----------"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too------look at the ex-NYO 4506s-dating back to 1946------and running for nearly 20 years; in 1963/1964-the ex-SURFACE "Patton" C-45/C-47s (those still running) were retired; by this late date-these buses were at least 16 years old------far surpassing the 5106s with the protruding front signs---------- "NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

--------interesting too that there was a gap of about 10/11 years between the last Old Looks and the first "Torpedos" (RTS); when one looked at a "Torpedo"- indeed- the once-futuristic Fishbowl looked decidedly dated; Old Looks were true ancient relics-alongside a new "Torpedo"-had they still been around----------certainly-when "stoa" began operations-they inherited BUSES------and NOT giant caterpillars or rolling shoe boxes; how sleek and up-to-date the first postwar buses looked when they began running in the 1940's-and how dated they appeared by the 1960's-when Fishbowls and "Dangerfields" were quickly entering the "Tee-Yay" and "stoa" fleets----------"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
--------interesting too that there was a gap of about 10/11 years between the last Old Looks and the first "Torpedos" (RTS); when one looked at a "Torpedo"- indeed- the once-futuristic Fishbowl looked decidedly dated; Old Looks were true ancient relics-alongside a new "Torpedo"-had they still been around----------certainly-when "stoa" began operations-they inherited BUSES------and NOT giant caterpillars or rolling shoe boxes; how sleek and up-to-date the first postwar buses looked when they began running in the 1940's-and how dated they appeared by the 1960's-when Fishbowls and "Dangerfields" were quickly entering the "Tee-Yay" and "stoa" fleets----------"NYO"

True. Whereas today's rolling oversized milk cartons, giant caterpillars and Slinkies on wheels are already "dated" even when new.

But also, when " 'stoa" arrived on the scene, it wasn't as if their end was Fishbowl-less - there was already the 120 "Jetsons" ordered by FACL (with 50 branded ST, and 5 of the A/C's retroactively so) in 1960. But on average, those lasted not nearly as long (nearly 13 years) as the 1963 "Tee-Yay" "Bullets," some of which filled in on " 'stoa" routes 18 years into their existence in 1981, when the "Borough Bombers" were waylaid for the first time.

I was talking to somebody today who asked "When are they gonna hire designers for the next buses?" I told him that that went out the window with "gub'mint" mandates for passenger buses, and he had to shake his head in agreement.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WB: Good points all; personally speaking-today's "buses"either look as though they had been designed by either a fellow with not too great a grasp on "good taste" or a person just out of the "baby let your freak flag fly!" throes of a bad acid trip-after an Alice Cooper concert-------- Sad Razz ; I recently looked at pictures of new ugly-as-all-hell four-section articulateds that truly are a thousand light-years beyond HIDEOUS--------to say these "buses" are direct descendents of the fictitious "Purple People Eater" is indeed being too kind-----DO NOT start on the newest "buses" (and-also-highway coaches) with the insectoid front ends with huge antenna-like objects sticking out "QUICK-HENRY! THE FLIT!" Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked-------------recall-also----------the "baby" Old Looks which were built through the late 1960's; had full-sized Old Looks continued in production during that era-think of "new generation" Old Looks being ordered by the "Tee-Yay" and "stoa"? Wink ; these "shorties" were designated TDH-/TGH-5301 and 3502; these buses were built until 1969-when these were replaced in the catalogue by 33-passenger Fishbowls--------"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Preferences---------- Though FACCo and the "Tee-Yay"(and the earlier BoT) both rostered "Pattons"-it was clear that they were-indeed-quite popular with SURFACE -despite the Old Looks they operated; in old photos/postcards/etc-where SURFACE buses are to be seen------chances are-by far-that they will be "Pattons"-------there were 300 Old Looks in the SURFACE fleet by 1948 (TD/TDH-4507s); ten 5104s were added to the fleet during 1954----the last SURFACE Old Looks were-of course-the sleek 5106s (the buses with the "sign that sticks out in the front" which entered the fleet in 1959--------"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that the first postwar buses purchased by SURFACE were Old Looks (4506s/4507s); these entered the fleet prior to the first "Pattons" (C-45-DT) which did not appear until 1948--------"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Interesting that the first postwar buses purchased by SURFACE were Old Looks (4506s/4507s); these entered the fleet prior to the first "Pattons" (C-45-DT) which did not appear until 1948--------"NYO"

And Surface only got about half or two-thirds of those "Pattons"; the rest were diverted to the "Bee O'Tee" because Surface defaulted on payments to Mack (as a prelude to their being forced into bankruptcy in June 1949). That diverted fleet were the first buses to enter service for the "Bee O'Tee's" newly established Manhattan Bus Division to oversee the bus routes formerly operated by Comprehensive Omnibus (M-1 Madison/Chambers, M-3 49th-50th Street Crosstown and M-7 65th Street) and East Side Omnibus (M-11 York Avenue, M-13 First Avenue and M-15 Second Avenue), when those two entities - run by "Subway Sam" Rosoff whose construction company built several sections of the "Eye-En-Dee" subway - threw in the towel in September 1948. (Not too dissimilar to when Avenue B & East Broadway - another Mack "Patton" customer until they stopped makin' 'em - folded its tent in 1980, leading to M8 Grand Street and M9 Avenue B both going to " 'stoa.")
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WB: INTERESTING historical data-for sure! Wink-------Speaking of the "Bee-oh-Tee"-after the War-it was as though they were "shopping around" for different bus builders-and this showed in the postwar fleet of the late 1940's; the "Bee-oh-Tee" fleet had Old Looks/"Pattons" and TWIN COACH "Oddballs"------------------the "Bee-oh-Tee" "Oddballs" appeared in 1947-as well as "Pattons" and the B&QT (St Louis) trolleybuses------the first Old Looks did not enter the "Bee-oh-Tee's" fleet until 1948 (4507s/4510s/5101s)------but------also in '48--------new "Pattons" again began to appear in the fleet (C-45s)----------"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
WB: INTERESTING historical data-for sure! Wink-------Speaking of the "Bee-oh-Tee"-after the War-it was as though they were "shopping around" for different bus builders-and this showed in the postwar fleet of the late 1940's; the "Bee-oh-Tee" fleet had Old Looks/"Pattons" and TWIN COACH "Oddballs"------------------the "Bee-oh-Tee" "Oddballs" appeared in 1947-as well as "Pattons" and the B&QT (St Louis) trolleybuses------the first Old Looks did not enter the "Bee-oh-Tee's" fleet until 1948 (4507s/4510s/5101s)------but------also in '48--------new "Pattons" again began to appear in the fleet (C-45s)----------"NYO"

Those C-45's that showed up on the "Bee O'Tee's" doorstep in '48 may've been those whose payment Surface defaulted on. But it could be noted that, more in terms of their type than in terms of performance, the 5101's and the Bingham "Pattons" were "oddball" in a way. Certainly the 4510's were. While, in Manhattan, stalwart "Gee-Em" loyalists NYCO and FACCo both moved on to the 4509's.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WB: Talk about "what were they thinking?"-I still wonder why FACCo decided to purchase the few WHITE 1150-D-7s for the #15 (in 1953)-instead of Old Looks or "Pattons"; I know these "odd ducks"were sold to a Tennessee operator in 1960; I recall that NHBL rostered this type-when Your's Truly was but a lad Wink If I recall-the only postwar "Pattons" FACCo rostered were the C-50-D7s (purchased in 1951)-----------"NYO"
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