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The New York "bit players" we tend to ignore......
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 2379
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Two Old Looks ("Shermans") on 5th Avenue are in the company of a SURFACE Mack crossing 42nd St., in this colorful (and bustling!) view from the early 1960's (note, also, that the familiar "RIDE THE SURFACE WAY" slogan is absent from the MACK, at this late date)..............

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/261490322095165078/

["GO THE MOTOR COACH WAY"]

Had to have been taken in 1963, as at that time MaBSTOA was using repainted 'hand-me-downs' from the 'Tee-Yay' - of old 'Bee O'Tee' 4510's of 102-foot width. (The distance between windows on the back side was wider than on the usual 96-foot Shermans.) This was in the period where 'T41##' AND 'S41##' buses were on the road, in some cases side-by-side.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Thanks, as always, for the info.

If that photo was indeed taken in 1963, then the remaining SURFACE equipment (regardless of make) would have been running out their last miles.

At that time (early 1960's) were the ex-SURFACE buses then still in operation still based out of their former garages, or, had they been, by that time, shuffled around to other garages?

"NYO"

["RIDE THE SURFACE WAY"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B,:

Take your time going through these historic TSQ views; QUITE a few buses to be savored. Wink

The top photo on this page is indeed QUITE rare; this shows a SURFACE "Sherman" (4506/4507?) approaching the camera, while now-redundant TARS trackage is being obliterated.........

https://www.vintag.es/2017/12/55-fascinating-photos-that-capture.html

["NYCTA"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an undated (early 1960's, I'm guessing) of venerable "Sherman" #4170 laying over, somewhere up in Da Bronx (read caption description by "Michael", regarding this bus)..........

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/531213718524255144/

["FACL"]
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
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Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Here's an undated (early 1960's, I'm guessing) of venerable "Sherman" #4170 laying over, somewhere up in Da Bronx (read caption description by "Michael", regarding this bus)..........

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/531213718524255144/

["FACL"]

That would have had an 'S' tagged on it come 1963, before it was destined for the scrapper as new MaBSTOA Fishbowls came fast and furious. It is also of no doubt that such buses would have been the type to have been assigned to 100th Street depot for use on 'short-run' M-101's between 125th and 23rd Streets when that service began in 1960 as a de facto replacement for the old NYCO Division #3 Lexington line.
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
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Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
W.B,:

Take your time going through these historic TSQ views; QUITE a few buses to be savored. Wink

The top photo on this page is indeed QUITE rare; this shows a SURFACE "Sherman" (4506/4507?) approaching the camera, while now-redundant TARS trackage is being obliterated.........

https://www.vintag.es/2017/12/55-fascinating-photos-that-capture.html

["NYCTA"]

Seeing the shot taken outside the Capitol Theatre on Broadway facing north at 4:35 P.M. as "From Here to Eternity" was playing, I think it a shame that no real good quality pics of the clock atop what was then the "MUTUAL LIFE" building exist. It was double-lined in those days, 12 x 18 numerals. Same arrangement as atop the original IBM Building on Madison Avenue in the East 50's. (And there aren't that many good pics of that clock either, for that matter.) Very possibly the original controls were by IBM's own Time Equipment Division (which they would sell in 1958 to Simplex), but I'm still not 100% sure. Such numerals were even atop their Chicago offices then located on South Michigan Avenue.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Here's an undated (early 1960's, I'm guessing) of venerable "Sherman" #4170 laying over, somewhere up in Da Bronx (read caption description by "Michael", regarding this bus)..........

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/531213718524255144/

["FACL"]

That would have had an 'S' tagged on it come 1963, before it was destined for the scrapper as new MaBSTOA Fishbowls came fast and furious. It is also of no doubt that such buses would have been the type to have been assigned to 100th Street depot for use on 'short-run' M-101's between 125th and 23rd Streets when that service began in 1960 as a de facto replacement for the old NYCO Division #3 Lexington line.


W.B.:

Am curious (since you mentioned the dreaded "S" word) what scrap company got most of the "Tee-Yay's" business, as hundreds of Old Looks and MACKS were being consigned to the torch?

I know that NOPORANO in New Jersey (in the Newark area) scrapped larg numbers of buses, locomotives, and rolling stock over the decades.

Sobering to think of how many valuable pieces of transport history were scrapped there, over the years.................

"NYO"

["RUST IN PIECE"]
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Am curious (since you mentioned the dreaded "S" word) what scrap company got most of the "Tee-Yay's" business, as hundreds of Old Looks and MACKS were being consigned to the torch?

I know that NOPORANO in New Jersey (in the Newark area) scrapped larg numbers of buses, locomotives, and rolling stock over the decades.

Sobering to think of how many valuable pieces of transport history were scrapped there, over the years.................

"NYO"

["RUST IN PIECE"]

When the Great Bus Renumbering took place in April 1963 in anticipation of the arrival of the first built-for-MaBSTOA Fishbowls (3301-3555), those 102-foot-wide 'Sherman' 4510's in the 4100's had a 'T' (as in 'Tee-Yay', not 'torch') prefix added on, while Surface buses transferred from FACCo and/or NYCO had 'S' prefices (signifying Surface, not 'scrap') before the 4100's - to distinguish one set from the other. Never mind that in a few years both, along with the other vintage Old Look lot, would be headed for the torch. Of course the worst of the lot would go first, followed by the absolute oldest (by then, meaning immediate post-war 1946 period).

A side note, many of the best-kept FACCo buses still on the grounds were transferred to Bronx depots (to replace those "worst" Surface buses that weren't put to pasture by FACL in 1957) while 132nd Street got about a quarter of the shiny new MaBSTOA Fishbowls (within the 3450-3470 range). This is why Manhattan ended up getting about half the new buses (the other Manhattan depot of course was Amsterdam, which is why you see many buses within the 3400's running around on routes 104 and 100 in this period).
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Appreciate the info, as always.

Regarding the "Shermans", it would seem that the very, very fortunate FEW were those "late models" that were sold to Jersey City's LAFAYETTE & GREENVILLE (I well remember these venerable old buses, many moons ago)

I remember, here in "Joisey", that the oldest square-window "Sherman's" began disappearing about 1966/1967, when the first Fishbowls were entering service with the local "indies"; the MACKS also began to vanish about this same time.

Too bad L&G did not purchase a few old the "Shermans" with "the sign that sticks out in the front".....at least ONE of these unique buses should have been saved.........

"NYO"

["3034"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

From Guy E.Martin's "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT BUSES".......

".......low numbered, former NYO TD-4506s, dating back to 1946, were assigned to Surface routes, replacing some MACKS. So much equipment changed hands that a problem with number duplication existed......"

".......the quick fix was to add a "T" prefix to ex-TA buses, ,and an "S" to former Surface buses. Many buses simply ran on their new routes with no effort to replace destination signs........"

".......with the arrival of the new TDH-5303's in 1963, MaBSTOA received an additional 279 TDH-4510s from the TA's Brooklyn operations; these, combined with the new buses, allowed the retirement of whatever MACK C-45s and 47s that were left, plus close to 400 GM TDH-4506s and 4507s............"

".....despite the replacement program, MaBSTOA sill had nearly 400 GM TDH-4506s and 4507s in their fleet of over 1,900 buses........"

"NYO"

["101 TO 6 ST"]

"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also from the aforementioned book...........

"........by 1956, fares had reached 15 cents, and FACCo was operating at a profit, although Surface was not. In an attempt to make both companies profitable, FACCo purchased Surface in December of 1956, and set up a subsidiary, Surface Transit, Inc......."

".......this operation continued with the only noticeable change being that any new buses purchased would be painted in Fifth Avenue's green and cream paint scheme........."

Also:

"...........MaBSTOA received its first Flxibles in early 1970, with a delivery of new, air-conditioned 111CC-D51 buses, numbered 4600 through 4727. This order allowed the remaining TDH-5106s to be placed in storage....."

".....the 480 TDH-5303s allowed the retirement of the Mack C-49s. The fleet in early 1967 consisted of 1,680 New Look 5301s and 5303s. The City invested over $55 million to upgrade the fleet, with over 1,500 new 5303s in less than five years........."

"NYO"

["Manhattan & Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"No respect"..........

In Martin's "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT BUSES", in the MaBSTOA chapter, there is only one photo of a "Dangerfield" (#7341), taken in 1983, wearing its third paint scheme (which, btw, really did nothing for me)

Outside of one Old Look photo ($4013), all of the rest of the photos are of Fishbowls.

Kind of makes you wonder, just how deep the "prejudice" againt the Flexies really went.

Ditto the chapter on the "Tee-Yay"; there is one photo of a "Sherman" (Old Look), one of a C-49-DT, and several photos of Fishbowls (there's even a few postwar "Oddball" TWINS represented)

None at all, however, of the lowly "Dangerfield".....yes, you DO have to wonder.......

"NYO"

"NYCTA"]
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W.B. Fishbowl



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Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
"No respect"..........

In Martin's "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT BUSES", in the MaBSTOA chapter, there is only one photo of a "Dangerfield" (#7341), taken in 1983, wearing its third paint scheme (which, btw, really did nothing for me)

Outside of one Old Look photo ($4013), all of the rest of the photos are of Fishbowls.

Kind of makes you wonder, just how deep the "prejudice" againt the Flexies really went.

Ditto the chapter on the "Tee-Yay"; there is one photo of a "Sherman" (Old Look), one of a C-49-DT, and several photos of Fishbowls (there's even a few postwar "Oddball" TWINS represented)

None at all, however, of the lowly "Dangerfield".....yes, you DO have to wonder.......

"NYO"

"NYCTA"]

And this in spite of the 1973-77 lot of 'Dangerfields' covering all five boroughs. And some running on the 'toniest' Manhattan routes, namely Fifth Avenue.

But before that, it was like the earlier models of 'Dangerfield' (the 1964-66 F2D6V-401-1's and 1969-70 111CC-D51's) were "off-off-off Broadway" tryouts (only venturing into small sections of Manhattan via the Manny and Willy B's and the uppermost tip of the borough as far south as 125th Street) while the Fishbowls were destined for "the big time" all along (and literally, via NYCO Division's #10 and Surface Transit Division's #104, both of which were running along the heart of Broadway in the 1964-65 period when The Beatles made their pivotal Ed Sullivan appearances and his show was in its twilight years). A misfortune, I guess, due to Manhattan's 'Tee-Yay' needs already filled while the older models in the outer boroughs were gradually being put to pasture.

But then, the bias against 1960 Fifth Avenue Coach Lines / Surface Transit Fishbowls, both in terms of existing photographs and their representation in books, seems to similarly reek, no?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Yes, without a doubt (as we have discussed in the past) it is almost as though FACL's Fishbowls never existed, given the few-and-far between photos of these oft-forgotten buses (case in point: there is not ONE photo of a FACL Fishbowl in the nycsubway.org bus photo archives)

IMHO, as I have stated several times in the past, a book should be put out on FACL's last years, focusing on the company and the last buses it purchased and operated, with special attention given to the Fishbowls.

This would be a work that would truly fill a void; the book could also focus on the early years of MaBSTOA.

Too, as we have both commented on in the past, the NYCTA/MaBSTOA photo galleries at nycsubway.org indeed, are both dominated by Fishbowl photos; those of "Dangerfields" are clearly in the minority, by comparison.

Interestingly, there are TWO photos of FACL Fishbowls in the Guy E. Martin book

Strange, too, that, "trade-wise" the GM buses were known as the "New Looks", yet, few of us enthusiasts/historians ever refer to these buses as such, using instead the familiar, time-honored term, "Fishbowl".

In some sense, it was almost as though the "Dangerfield" was the "poor man's Fishbowl"; granted, the GM buses debuted several years prior to the first "Dangerfields", so that, by the time they DID appear, much of the proverbial "thunder" had already been stolen.......

"NYO"

["15 TO PARK ROW"]
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.........another of my favorite historical "what if's" regarding FACL, had it remained independent.

Would they have purchased all Fishbowls, or, at some point, also purchased "Dangerfields"?

(imagine FACL rostering "Borough Bombers"!)

Recall that, by the 1960's, the CTA fleet (unlike the "Tee-Yay"), was one in which FLXIBLE buses dominated (also, nearly 1000 propane-powered "Oddball" TWINS.

Of course, there WERE some Fishbowls

There were, of course, a large number of ex-CMCCo Old Looks(aka "Shermans"), and the hodgepodge of WHITES, MACKS, and ACF-BRILL coaches, which were originally CSL units.

It was not until the early 70's when the CTA began purchasing Fishbowls in large quantities.............

"NYO"

["CTA"]
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