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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Joe:
As always, greatly appreciate your personal memories and input.
I had long-ago read that, originally, main-line steam trains were also to be carried over the BB, which, of course, meant that there had to be heavy structural re-enforcement in the Bridge roadway and the cable supports.
Consider, at one time, just how heavy a load the span once carried; a steady parade of streetcars and El trains, in addition to motor traffic.
Too, consider the weight of the tracks and related infrastructure for the El trains and the streetcars; during rush periods, streetcars were often bumper-to-bumper on the Bridge; even though the El cars were of wooden construction, they certainly were not light in weight.
Later streetcars (like the Peter Witts and the PCC's) were, of course, of all-metal construction.
The weight load on the Bridge was the reason why steel BRT/BMT subway trains were never carried over the span, although at the Chambers St. station (a terminal station, until the Nassau St. Loop was completed in 1931) incorporated a track layout where a set of tracks were to rise up to the surface, and connect to the El tracks on the Bridge (in fact, this proposal was the main reason why the station's ceilings are so high)
Of course, the weight of the all-steel "AB" Standards would have been too great.
The lightweight BMT experimental trainsets of the 1930's would have been ideal for crossing the Bridge; it was envisioned at the time that fleets of such modern, lightweight trains would have replaced all of the BMT's elderly elevated car fleet, but Mayor La Guardia had already sealed the fates of the elevated network........
"NYO"
["BROOKLYN RAPID TRANSIT"]
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:19 am; edited 2 times in total |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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This busy circa-1910 view (near Sand Street) shows the tremendous amount of rail traffic once carried by the Brooklyn Bridge; note the El trains and, also the streetcars, which are running on two levels)
Also, note the steel girderwork for the overhead trolley wires; the heavy steel elevated structure is also clearly defined here.
Looking at the Bridge today, one would scarcely imagine the intense rapid transit traffic it once carried.......
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/408279522475054346/
["BMT LINES"]
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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These two historic photos at Sands Street depict the complexity and heavy construction required for the heavy El and streetcar traffic crossing the Brooklyn Bridge.
Hard to believe that not a trace of any of this complex and intricate rapid transit infrastructure remains today.........
https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?113238
https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?113235
(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
["LEXINGTON"] |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Post-1944, we see a PCC which has just left the Brooklyn Bridge trackage and is about to enter the Park Row loops; note how the former El tracks have been re-aligned to connect to the streetcar loops.......
https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?140778
(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
["BoT"] |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Here's an interesting, in-depth page (w/ many photos and diagrams) on the cavernous, echoing, now-decaying BMT Chambers St. station; read here of the proposal to have a set of tracks connect to the Brooklyn Bridge trackage.
Also of interest is that the LIRR operated a summer-only through service (via the Willy B) to Rockaway Beach from Chambers Street, between 1913 and 1917; this service would have used the LIRR's earliest MP-41's, which were virtually identical to the INTERBOROUGH's earliest rolling stock.
Imagine taking the LIRR from lower Manhattan out to Rockaway........
https://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/chambers.html
["MP-41"]
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Apr 15, 2023 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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This highly-informative page features track plans, maps, and photos of the long-abandoned (closed 1948) Delancey Street trolley terminal.
A list of the car lines that once served this station is also included......
https://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/willb.html
["BRIDGE LOCAL"] |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Previously, I mentioned the joint BRT/LIRR service between Chambers Street and Rockaway Park; the earliest LIRR MU's (MP-41's) like the first INTERBOROUGH cars, were designed by George Gibbs.
These early MU's were, in fact, designed to operate within the tight confines of the IRT's tunnels.The interiors of the MP-41's were virtually identical of those of the 41's, even down to the leather straps for standing passengers (the last were retired in the early 1950's)
Unlike the IRT cars, however, the 41's were equipped with steps, vestibule traps, and roof-mounted headlights......
"NYO"
["GIBBS"] |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Compare these two photos of a LIRR MP-54 and an early INTERBOROUGH car; these early electrics were virtually identical.
In later years, of course, the early IRT cars had automatic center doors installed; by this time, however, they had been relegated to service on the Manhattan elevateds, and were no longer in subway service..........
https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?17595
https://www.rr-fallenflags.org/li/li-mu1110ggC.jpg
(courtesy: nycsubway.org/fallenflags.org)
["INTERBOROUGH"] |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Much legend abounds concerning the IRT/LIRR connection at Atlantic Avenue; some believe it was never used; others insist it was, at least, by the larger than life August Belmont, traveling out to Belmont Race Track aboard his private subway car (the only one of its kind in the world) the luxurious "MINEOLA".
Interesting collection of photos, track plans, and articles here..........
https://arrts-arrchives.com/irtconn.html
["MINEOLA"] |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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In discussing rapid transit operations over the lower East River crossings, mention must be made of the Chrystie Street Connection; after this connection opened in 1967, the separate identities of the BMT and the IND vanished.
In the early days and weeks of the new connection, operations were far from smooth.
This is a very detailed and informative page.......
https:///en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrystie_Street_Connection
["NX"] |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22666 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Bridge
Of particular interest, see the articles headed:
"RECONSTRUCTION"
"SUBWAY TRACKS"
"TRACKAGE HISTORY"
["BROOKLYN-MANHATTAN TRANSIT"] |
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W.B. Fishbowl
Age: 57 Joined: 02 Oct 2014 Posts: 2423 Location: New York, New York, USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote: | In discussing rapid transit operations over the lower East River crossings, mention must be made of the Chrystie Street Connection; after this connection opened in 1967, the separate identities of the BMT and the IND vanished.
In the early days and weeks of the new connection, operations were far from smooth.
This is a very detailed and informative page.......
https:///en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrystie_Street_Connection
["NX"] |
It also led to the creation of the first color-coded system for subway routes. I noticed some errors in the 1970 Standards Manual; they had the 3, 8, E and M trains as being in PMS 312 Blue when it should have been PMS 306 (by my measure of colorimetry, anyway - oh, and that was also the color for that ill-fated NX); and the "green" routes (CC, GG, RR, SS) as PMS 354 when they should have been PMS 355 (one of the colors which, in the 1979 change of the system colors, would be applied to the 4, 5 and 6 lines). Besides, PMS 312 was applicable to the JFK Express, anyway. |
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N4 Jamaica
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 858 Location: Long Island
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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There could be various reasons why the Board of Transportation did not establish an interborough bus route across the Brooklyn Bridge after the 1950 reconstruction. For one, the city had invested in four underwater Independent tunnels.
----
I would recommend a 1995 book by Henry Petroski, Engineers of Dreams: Great bridge builders and the spanning of America. Twice, he refers to the structural limitations of the Brooklyn Bridge, without giving details. He is excellent on engineers learning from errors and sometimes overcompensating. Born in 1942, he has authored at least 19 books. |
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