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MaBSTOA Nostalgia ("Take 2")
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 55
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 1551
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
W.B.:

IMHO, I think that the "Culture Loop" runs, though hardly integral to "main line" operations, was always interesting in itself.

BTW: When did the last Fishbowls run in this service?; I never saw any photos of Flexies on this run, so I'm guessing that only Fishbowls were used.

When exactly did the "Culture Loop" service begin?

Thanks, as always, for your input......

"NYO"

The M41 and B88 Culture Loops began in 1973; a Bronx Culture Loop began the next year. And yes, only Fishbowls ran on this. What MaBSTOA Flxies were in service, until 1974, were in 'da Bronx'. I think they did away with all the Loops by the '80's.
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 55
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those first-gen A/C Fishbowls, around 1967, were shipped to Ulmer Park depot in Brooklyn where they were recast as noted (i.e. one singular front roll sign); by 1970 they were transferred to Jamaica, before going back to Kingsbridge (though I did show one pic taken in 1972 of one of these buses in service on the M104 - and the script on top of the standee windows indicating 'New York City Transit Authority' as I remember).
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 17362
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

As always, appreciate your always interesting input.

I had been guessing that the "Culture Loops" disappeared sometime during the 1980's.

You've also mentioned "shuffling" of buses from one depot to another, over the spans of their service lives, in a number of our discussions.

Were there any "Tee-Yay" or MaBSTOA buses that remained at the depots they were originally assigned to until they were retired?

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 55
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 1551
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Were there any "Tee-Yay" or MaBSTOA buses that remained at the depots they were originally assigned to until they were retired?

Maybe a few here and there, but it's really hard to say. Especially after MaBSTOA came into the picture in '62. Heck, even whole routes' depot assignments were shuffled from time to time (i.e. the 'TB' route - pingponged between 100th Street and 146th Street depots in the '60's to early '70's, then after renamed M34, M35 and Bx21 were sent for several years to 132nd Street. Wasn't like the relative stability of the NYCO, FACCo and Surface days.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 17362
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Were there any "Tee-Yay" or MaBSTOA buses that remained at the depots they were originally assigned to until they were retired?

Maybe a few here and there, but it's really hard to say. Especially after MaBSTOA came into the picture in '62. Heck, even whole routes' depot assignments were shuffled from time to time (i.e. the 'TB' route - pingponged between 100th Street and 146th Street depots in the '60's to early '70's, then after renamed M34, M35 and Bx21 were sent for several years to 132nd Street. Wasn't like the relative stability of the NYCO, FACCo and Surface days.


W.B:

Thanks for the info; this told me all I wanted to know.

Between the shuffling of buses from one depot to another, and the alteration/customizing of roller curtains, the "Tee-Yay" and MaBSTOA guy MORE than had enough of their proverbial plates to keep them buy!

With PNJ/TNJ, there were occasional "shuffles", sometimes from one garage (within a division) to another, or, sometimes, from one division to another.

Back in the 70's/early 80's I can recall seeing some transit Fishbowls being stabled at the now-closed Union City garage, that, as I could see from their numbers, were ESSEX Division buses (Newark area)

I remember these buses displaying blank roller curtains and having cardboard signs taped to the inside of the windshields.

I also remember distinctly one bus being from the "3XXB" series; I know these ran on Newark routes.....

"NYO"
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B53RICH




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall there was a proposal for a Queens Culture Loop route but never got underway, the existing Culture Loops had been discontinued by then.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B53RICH wrote:
I recall there was a proposal for a Queens Culture Loop route but never got underway, the existing Culture Loops had been discontinued by then.


Thanks for sharing this information; I was not aware of this proposal.

These days, between the ailing city budget and the pandemic, a "culture loop" bus would indeed have been abandoned, if such an operation still existed.....

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the upgrading of "Tee-Yay" and MABSTOA fleets with a/c buses......

What was the "deciding" factor regarding the purchasing of a/c buses as they became available?

Did the City hand down some sort of "deadline" to make the entire city bus fleet all a/c buses?

Or, did the "Tee-Yay" and MaBSTOA simply purchase a/c buses when it came time to retire older, non a/c buses?

Appreciate input, as always.......

"NYO"

BTW:

When did the practice of mounting ad frames over the a/c grilling in the off-season begin?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5th Avenue & 94th St. (Brooklyn), 1981.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154434

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gun Hill Road, 1973......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?57233

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 55
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Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Regarding the upgrading of "Tee-Yay" and MABSTOA fleets with a/c buses......

What was the "deciding" factor regarding the purchasing of a/c buses as they became available?

Did the City hand down some sort of "deadline" to make the entire city bus fleet all a/c buses?

Or, did the "Tee-Yay" and MaBSTOA simply purchase a/c buses when it came time to retire older, non a/c buses?

Appreciate input, as always.......

"NYO"

BTW:

When did the practice of mounting ad frames over the a/c grilling in the off-season begin?

The first A/C buses (in terms of their being "to stay" as opposed to being "experimental" or a small group like Fifth Avenue Coach Lines' 1960 A/C Fishbowls) were purchased under the administration of Mayor John V. Lindsay (or as the late Mike Quill referred to him during the brutal 1966 transit strike, "Mr. Lindsley"). Lindsay was all for the "shiny and new" in the city - remember, it was under his administration that we got the slanted R-40's, and while it wasn't immediate, it was also under his watch that the subways began running air-conditioned cars.

It is also significant that the last Fishbowls ever ordered for both the 'Tee-Yay' and MaBSTOA - the custom-made T6H-5309's and 5310's - were also ordered and put into service under Lindsay's watch. (By the time the first of the Flxibles that came fast and furious thereafter arrived on city streets, Abe Beame was Mayor - and we all know how that turned out - his Mayoralty, not the buses, that is.)

So in this case, it wasn't "what," but "who." Evidently Lindsay's predecessors didn't think A/C on buses or subways was a real priority.

As for ad frames over A/C grilling, I'd venture after 1980 or so. Only really saw them on the Flxies.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Great info; thanks for sharing here.

Interesting, when you think it was not until many years later, that the entire MTA subway fleet was equipped with a/c; the H&M had the distinction of being the first in nation to operate production-model, a/c rapid transit cars (thee were "K"/"MP-52"used in the joint PRR/H&M service to Newark.

When the first "PA" cars replaced the old H&M "Black" cars in 1965, it gave PATH an entirely air-conditioned rapid transit fleet.

Ahhh, the illustrious "Mr. Lindlsley"......according to Brian Cudahy's "UNDER THE SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK" (in relation to the 1966 "Tee-Yay" strike):

"......Lindsay, who joined the negotiations in Late December, spoke of lofty principals of collective bargaining and lectured Quill on his civic and moral responsibilities. The strike became unavoidable....."

".....Quill and the union leadership were hauled off to jail, and, when a settlement was finally reached after thirteen awful days of no subway or buses, most people felt that the TWU emerged victorious....."

Quill: "....the judge can drop dead in his robes, and we would not call off the strike....."

Ironically, in the same book, Lindsay said (of the growing graffiti issues): ".....my administration will not rest until this epidemic is wiped out...."

Sadly, it would be many more years until the graffiti scourge was finally wiped out.

Also:

".....the IRT suffered the ravages of graffiti early on....."

No kidding........

"NYO"




"...... Sad
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also from "UNDER THE SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK" (Cudahy):

".....a noble experiment-air conditioning-was tried on a train of R-17 cars in 1956. It failed. As a result, the TA began to feel that air-conditioning was an impossible dream for the subways. This view, however, overlooked the fact that the H&M would aalready be operating air-conditioned cars by 1958....."

According to Stan Fischler's "UPTOWN, DOWNTOWN"........

".....the first (single-car) experiment with a/c was in 1955, utilizing R-15 #6239, four packaged air-conditioning units, at one-and-a-half ton capacity each, were installed........

"......this experiment (and the later R-17 experiments) failed. The a/c units broke down and were left in the cars until later removed and replaced with traditional axiflow ceiling fans....."

"......the early subway car air-conditioners failed because of a combination of inadequate capacity and ceiling mounting, and, also caused intolerable noise and vibration levels....."

Fast-forward now to the late 1960's, when the "Tee-Yay" ordered ten R-38's (the "Brightliner Wannabes") with with air-conditioning.

Mayor Lindsay: ".....if these steps prove successful, the City will put a top priority on orders for several hundred more, so that air-conditioned trains will be moving on nearly all subway lines in the next few years....."

When the City's subway system almost totally collapsed by the early 1980's, functioning a/c in the trains was the least of the MTA's worries; just rying to keep the fleet in operation was then the major concern, with hundreds of cars OOS each day.

Yes, Your's Truly recalls that time all too well well....

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From "WELCOME ABOARD THE GM NEW LOOK BUS" (McKane/Squier):

".........by 1959, DC TRANSIT boasted that it had the largest fleet of air-conditioned transit buses in the world; in 1959, DC TRANSIT took delivery of 75 air-conditioned TDH-5301's......." (DC TRANSIT was already operating a/c Old Looks)

In late 1963, to replace the last streetcars in the city, BTC (Baltimore) took delivery of 101 air-conditioned TDH-5303's; these buses were also the first a/c buses in the BTC fleet............

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too bad that FACCo did not roster a fleet of these handsome machines (note the MACK bringing up the rear)......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?156384

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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