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'Bus Nostalgia'
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amoreira81



Age: 42
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Brooklyn, NY

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the background, however, I see what should be an active CT Transit RTS. Is this the Northeast Transportation garage, by any chance?
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ripta42
Site Admin


Age: 44
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 1035
Location: Pawtucket, RI / Woburn, MA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill D wrote:
We also have purchased items from them, including the front 2 modules of NYCT RTS #4459, which became a donor for one of our accident damaged buses.


So is there a CT Transit bus with orange lights next to the destination sign?
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Bill D




Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Waterbury, CT

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amoreira81 wrote:
In the background, however, I see what should be an active CT Transit RTS. Is this the Northeast Transportation garage, by any chance?


[Edited correction]
The picture of the Flxibles was taken at Northeast, shortly before they were flatbedded to NIMCO. The picture of RTS #4459 was taken at CT Transit's Hartford garage. They handle the major repairs on our vehicles.

ripta42 wrote:
So is there a CT Transit bus with orange lights next to the destination sign?


The original plan was to replace the front module, but the frame rails were not as badly damaged as originally thought, so parts were removed from the donor bus for installation on our bus (#A124). As for the orange lights, they didn't make it to our bus, but I have them under my work bench.

Parts from #4459 have been installed on several of our buses, including front wheel hubs and brake drums, steering boxes and a side window. The next time you encounter a bus, think about the size of NIMCO's operation and where the parts go. There may be a "slice of the Apple" on that vehicle, no matter where you are. Who knows?

Bill





Last edited by Bill D on Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Safety2




Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 3
Location: Mechanicsville, MD

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following info is from "Formation & History of The Connecticut Company & Connecticut Railway & Lighting Company" by R. Patrick Stanford - 1974:

(I apologize, but I tried several times to get the columns to separate, with no success. The first 3-6 numbers beginning with a 1, 7, 8, or 9 is the fleet number).

CR&L Lines (Pre-War Macks):

Fleet # Model/Serial #

740-743 6CW3S-1661-1664
744-751 6CW3S-1666-1673
752 6CW3S-1675
753-759 6CW3S-1677-1683
760-769 6CW3S-1651-1660
770 6CW3S-1665
771 6CW3S-1674
772 6CW3S-1676
773-799 6CW3S-1684-1710
801-822 6CW3S-1459-1480
823-828 6CW3S-1536-1541
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
852-875 6CQ3S-1361-1384
876-903 6CQ3S-1561-1588
904 6CQ3S-1590
905 6CQ3S-1589
906-907 6CQ3S-1591-1592
908-926 6CQ3S-1470-1488
927 6CQ3S-1553
928-932 6CQ3S-1490-1494
933 6CQ3S-1554
934 6CQQ3S-1496
935-938 6CQ3S-1555-1558
939 6CQ3S-1501
940 6CQ3S-1559
941-943 6CQ3S-1503-1505
944 6CQ3S-1560
945-947 6CQ3S-1507-1509
948 6CQ3S-1500
949 6CQ3s-1489
950 6CQ3S-1502
951-953 6CQ3S-1497-1499
954 6CQ3S-1506
955 6CQ3S-1495
956-965 6CQ3S-1663-1672
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
151-170 LD3G-1051-1070
171-180 LD3G-1198-1207
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill,

Very interesting.

The RTS that you show illustrates precisely the two special lights (one on either side of the destination sign) that are a mystery to me.

Does anyone know what they were for?

As usual, great pictures.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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1988 MCI TC40-102A




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Riverdale aka Liberty Lines Express Land

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're referring to the emergency flashers, if you mean the orange circular lights on either side of the dest. sign. They get activated by a secret button in the operator's area when there is an emergency on the bus. It's funny because imagine one second the operator is being held at gunpoint or threatened in some other way, the next second he hits the secret button and suddenly cops show up to bust the criminals. When the bus operator hits the secret button not only do the flashers go off, also the signs say "EMERGENCY / CALL POLICE", in the back "CALL / COPS / 911" and all the exterior lights (clearance lights, taillights, maybe turn signals as well, but not the headlights) blink on and off.
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1988 MCI TC40-102A wrote:
I think you're referring to the emergency flashers, if you mean the orange circular lights on either side of the dest. sign. They get activated by a secret button in the operator's area when there is an emergency on the bus. It's funny because imagine one second the operator is being held at gunpoint or threatened in some other way, the next second he hits the secret button and suddenly cops show up to bust the criminals. When the bus operator hits the secret button not only do the flashers go off, also the signs say "EMERGENCY / CALL POLICE", in the back "CALL / COPS / 911" and all the exterior lights (clearance lights, taillights, maybe turn signals as well, but not the headlights) blink on and off.


Benjamin,

You have now solved the mystery of the lights.

I seem to remember reading about them years ago but it completely slipped my mind.

A very clever idea especially with crime being what it is today.

Thanks so much for sharing.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Safety2 wrote:
The following info is from "Formation & History of The Connecticut Company & Connecticut Railway & Lighting Company" by R. Patrick Stanford - 1974:

(I apologize, but I tried several times to get the columns to separate, with no success. The first 3-6 numbers beginning with a 1, 7, 8, or 9 is the fleet number).

CR&L Lines (Pre-War Macks):

Fleet # Model/Serial #

740-743 6CW3S-1661-1664
744-751 6CW3S-1666-1673
752 6CW3S-1675
753-759 6CW3S-1677-1683
760-769 6CW3S-1651-1660
770 6CW3S-1665
771 6CW3S-1674
772 6CW3S-1676
773-799 6CW3S-1684-1710
801-822 6CW3S-1459-1480
823-828 6CW3S-1536-1541
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
852-875 6CQ3S-1361-1384
876-903 6CQ3S-1561-1588
904 6CQ3S-1590
905 6CQ3S-1589
906-907 6CQ3S-1591-1592
908-926 6CQ3S-1470-1488
927 6CQ3S-1553
928-932 6CQ3S-1490-1494
933 6CQ3S-1554
934 6CQQ3S-1496
935-938 6CQ3S-1555-1558
939 6CQ3S-1501
940 6CQ3S-1559
941-943 6CQ3S-1503-1505
944 6CQ3S-1560
945-947 6CQ3S-1507-1509
948 6CQ3S-1500
949 6CQ3s-1489
950 6CQ3S-1502
951-953 6CQ3S-1497-1499
954 6CQ3S-1506
955 6CQ3S-1495
956-965 6CQ3S-1663-1672
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
151-170 LD3G-1051-1070
171-180 LD3G-1198-1207


Safety2,

I have gone back to the prewar production records of Mack (again) and find some details that may be contrary to information from the Stanford report.

But, before we begin, I need one clarification; what, if any, relationship was there between CR&L and the Connecticut Company? (I do know that the New York, New Haven and Hartford Rail Road owned Connecticut, but did they also own CR&L?).

According to Mack, CR&L purchased no model CW's, and all 85 or 87 (depending on which count you use) went to the Connecticut Company.

Mr. Stranford also intergrates CQ orders which, according to the records, were purchased by both companies (31 to Connecticut and 48 to CR&L).

He further omits Connecticut's order for 39 LD's (ser# 1008 to 1017, 1040 to 1045 and 1229 to 1253).

There is one other interesting fact that appears in the records; 15 LD's ordered by CR&L in September of 1942 were cancelled.

If the two companies were associated it could explain the ordering differences between what Mr Stanford has published and what the Mack records reflect.

Green Bus Lines of Jamaica, New York (my alma mater) oversaw the purchase of buses for its subsidiaries Jamaica Buses and Triboro Coach, but they were always ordered in the names of those companies.

I'm sure you'll clear all this up for me, and I would tell you that I have found errors in Mack's records but nothing as glaring as in the lists above.

Thanks.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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Bill D




Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Waterbury, CT

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky,

In 1906, the Consolidated Railway (which later became known as the Connecticut Company), took control of CR&L through a lease agreement which was for a term of 999 years, at a cost of $1.4 million per year. 75% of the lease amount was guaranteed by Consolidated's parent company, the New Haven Railroad.

When the New Haven Railroad and Connecticut Copany both filed for bankruptcy in 1935, the CR&L shareholders sued to protect their interest. The court ruled that the lease be terminated, and that CR&L would regain posession of its real property. This consisted of the Bridgeport, Derby, New Britain, Norwalk and Waterbury divisions. Equipment, both streetcars and buses, was transferred from Connecticut Company to CR&L. In addition, some buses which had been ordered by the Connecticut Company were delivered to CR&L instead. This may account for any discrepancies in ownership information among he various lists. It may also explain the picture that was posted earlier of the unmarked Connecticut Company bus, as it may not have been known at that time which company would retain possession of he bus.

CR&L also quickly converted the remaining streetcar lines in their divisions to buses, which is why there were so many vehicles bought during the 1936 - 37 period.

I am compiling a more thorough history that I will post when finished. I hope that this information will help to explain the connection between the two companies.

Bill
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figured that I'd give you all something to think about while I'm away so pictured below is a bus that I know absolutely nothing about - in fact, I don't even remember where I found the picture!

If this is what Greyhound had in mind when they first thought about a split level, it's just as well that they waited for a better 4501 design to come along!

This has to be a one of a kind because no idiot in their right mind would have mass produced it!

All kidding aside, let's see what we can come up with!

The vintage is probably early thirties, and possibly a Heiser' custom built job (Heiser Body did put a few oddball coaches together on Kenworth chassis at that time).

If it is something that Heiser/Kenworth conjured up it might even have twin Hall Scott pancakes as power.

The front grill almost emulates White but I don't think it is.

The most amazing feature is the sheer size of the front tires - so large, in fact, that the driver almost sits between them like a Roman chariot - I can't imagine how this thing could have been steered without some kind of power assist!

Unfortunatley, most of the markings are out of focus even in zoom, but I was able to make out Seattle, Tacoma and Portland as service destinations so the bus must have operated in the northwest and possibly into Canada.

There are logos that could be Trailways but, again, to vague to really identify.

I'll keep digging until I find out more about it.

In the meantime - Happy Thanksgiving.

Photo borrowed for educational purposes only.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

7472

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Safety2




Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 3
Location: Mechanicsville, MD

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CR&L Bus Lines - Norwalk, CT division - #812
On Wall St. at Main St. - Norwalk (on the NORWALK-STAMFORD route)

1936 Mack CW (6CW3S-1470) - photo by Ed Wadhams
(from the Raoul K. Denton Collection)


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2144/2050208959_6da8af97cb_m.jpg
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill D wrote:
Mr. Linsky,

In 1906, the Consolidated Railway (which later became known as the Connecticut Company), took control of CR&L through a lease agreement which was for a term of 999 years, at a cost of $1.4 million per year. 75% of the lease amount was guaranteed by Consolidated's parent company, the New Haven Railroad.

When the New Haven Railroad and Connecticut Copany both filed for bankruptcy in 1935, the CR&L shareholders sued to protect their interest. The court ruled that the lease be terminated, and that CR&L would regain posession of its real property. This consisted of the Bridgeport, Derby, New Britain, Norwalk and Waterbury divisions. Equipment, both streetcars and buses, was transferred from Connecticut Company to CR&L. In addition, some buses which had been ordered by the Connecticut Company were delivered to CR&L instead. This may account for any discrepancies in ownership information among he various lists. It may also explain the picture that was posted earlier of the unmarked Connecticut Company bus, as it may not have been known at that time which company would retain possession of he bus.

CR&L also quickly converted the remaining streetcar lines in their divisions to buses, which is why there were so many vehicles bought during the 1936 - 37 period.

I am compiling a more thorough history that I will post when finished. I hope that this information will help to explain the connection between the two companies.

Bill


Bill,

Your above synopsis is good enough for me in filling in virtually all the blanks concerning the relationship between Connecticut and CR&L.

It all makes sense now!

BTW; great job on the RTS facelift - it just goes to show how clever GM's engineers were when they came up with the 'modular' concept - it's really amazing what you can do with those buses!

Thanks for great sharing.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pictured below is fleet # 716 – a 1938 Mack Model CT-3G (ser# 1016) and one of 35 delivered to Green Bus Lines of Jamaica, New York in May of that year.

The CT series was another of Mack’s popular but short lived models with only 574 in various forms being built between 1935 and 1943 (the bulk being sold by 1939 with only a handful thereafter).

Even though this 35 passenger coach boasted Mack’s latest engine design transversely mounted in the rear with a 525 cubic inch displacement and rated at 125 brake horsepower, it gained a reputation as being underpowered for many applications, and was virtually useless on very heavy traffic lines.

Mack was well aware of the problems, but was too busy preparing to introduce a new generation of higher capacity transits designated as the CO and CM models in 1939.

Merely a longer version of the ‘improved’ CQ (discussed earlier in this forum), the CT also suffered from overheating due to the fact that the radiator was originally placed on the curb side and was prone to excessive debris – in later production the core was moved to the street side which eliminated the problem.

Despite all of the negative publicity, the little CT became the backbone of the Green Line fleet between 1937 and 1946 with 100 in service (70 of its own and 30 inherited in the acquisition of the Manhattan and Queens Bus Corporation in 1943).

Green Bus Lines, along with its subsidiaries Triboro Coach, Jamaica Buses and Command Bus Company, was considered to be one of Long Island New York’s largest private operators between 1925 and its takeover by the MTA in 2006.

Picture #1; #716 almost at the end of its useful life on the Q22 and signed for Rockaway Park sometime in the late forties (photo courtesy of the Redden Archives).

Picture#2; A GBL CT in one of its not so unusual breakdowns! (photo borrowed for educational purposes only).

Picture #3; a factory photo of #110 operating for the Manhattan and Queens Bus Corporation and signed for Q60 Queens Blvd. (photo courtesy of the Mack Truck Museum, Allentown, Pa.).

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

8263



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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of all the great intercity buses built in the U.S. through the 1950’s, three models stand out as being the most memorable, and all of which came from the drawing boards of GM Design and Engineering (with some assistance from Greyhound).

I would think that the most recognizable would have to have been the Greyhound designed PD 3751 (nicknamed ‘Silversides’ and showcased earlier in this forum) followed closely by both the PD 4104 (Highway Traveler – to be highlighted later) and the PD 4501 “Scenicruiser’ which we will examine here.

Pictured below, and capturing three different poses, is fleet # 5542, and one of 1001 GM PD 4501’s (ser#’s 0001 to 1001) built exclusively for and delivered to the Greyhound Corporation of Dallas Texas for its four regional divisions between 1954 and 1956.

Intercity bus travel was at its peak in the 50’s, and luxury was keynote in the design of this deck and a half 40 foot coach featuring high level seating which both pleased passengers and allowed for additional under floor storage.

Also unique in the industry at the time was the fact that every 4501 built was restroom equipped with hot and cold running water.

The Scenicruisers were originally powered by twin Detroit 4-71 Diesel engines driving a single transmission via a fluid coupling which turned out to be both a disaster and the beginning of the downfall of a long term relationship between GM and Greyhound (the writer believes that it may have been the beginning of the end of bus manufacture by GM altogether).

Apparently, no amicable solution could be reached with GM on the engine problems and Greyhound eventually contracted with Marmon-Herrington, a drive train specialty company in Indianapolis, to install new transversely mounted single 8V-71 Diesels on every surviving 4501.

By the early 60’s intercontinental jet planes began to proliferate and the era of the luxury motor coach began to wane.

Many remaining Scenicruisers were sold off to smaller operators and still saw service as late as the early 70’s.

Some 'Raw Facts' on the PD 4501;

Length; 40 feet
Width; 96 inches
Height; 134 inches
Wheelbase; 261 inches
Turn radius; 45 feet
Seating; 43
Luggage; 344 cu. ft.
Aisle width; 14 inches
Front door width; 26 inches

Statistics from Bus World Encyclopedia
Photos courtesy of Trailways Memories.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

8574



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Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 501
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Scenicruisers were gorgeous buses. I was fortunate to occasionally get one on my trips between Phoenix and L.A. in the early and mid-70's. They were fast, too. I remember one driver warning the next one to watch his speed because the bus was a "runner."
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