BusTalk

[Mr. Linsky]

frankie,

Your Cleveland Southeastern is a TDM 4509 built sometime between 1949 and 1953 as evidenced by the Thermo-Matic system and the ornate ribs under the engine fresh air cowl over the rear quarter window - neither of which feature appeared on the air suspended replacement dubbed the TDM 4515 introduced in 1953.

# 4140 very likely came from one of three Ohio based sources including Cleveland-Lorain Highway Coach, Capital Greyhound or Pennsylvania Greyhound - all of which had numbers of the model.

As far as what the bus turned out to look like - I have no comment other than that it's disgusting!

Good find anyway!

regards,

Mr. 'L'

[frankie]

Glass top roofs have always been an aftermarket feature for sightseeing companies. Here we see two rare examples of what looks like TDM-4509 models. Glass tops were more common with the next generation fishbowl. At first I thought they were one and the same bus under the guise of different liveries, but close examination show having different turn signals.

American Sightseeing Tours #160 wears New Jersey Omnibus tags and looks like it operates around the New York City side of the state as evident by it's destination sign.

Ohio based #596 sports Transit Bus plates, but can not identify the company it runs for.

Frankie

Photos courtesy of Flicker for educational purposes.

[Mr. Linsky]

frankie,

Forgive me but I had to put a bit more light on the subjects so that I could see what they were - at my age eyesight tends to deteriorate!

Just the porcelain GM badges under the windshields and the Thermo-Matic Systems tell me that they are both TDM-4509's built between 1949 and 1953.

Usually, when they did these glass top panels they left some slack in the gaskets to protect the glasses from damage by stresses.

I cannot understand why GM dubbed these special editions as TD's instead of SD's and further why they didn't have the next available model number which would have been 4512 at the time - it has made for a lot of confusion!

Great finds.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[Tripstop80]

I think both TDM/TDH4509's are ex Red and Tan Lines of Jersey City. Red and Tan had 4509 sightseers. A typical Red and Tan spotting feature are the silver strips on the front. The 97 line was operated by Red and Tan at one time and later Inter City Lines. The Ohio bus had a split sign, which Red and Tan had, and was displaying the #2 which was a Red and Tan route - 2 Secaucus

[Mr. Linsky]

Seen sometime in 1962 readying for its motor cycle police escort on its inaugural run in shuttle service between the Miami suburb of Miami Springs and the city's downtown district is a GM Coach Model TDH 4512 originally purchased by the Miami Beach Railway Company (MBRC) and operating at the time of the exposure for a newly formed bi-county transit authority.

The obvious oddity here are the heavy prison bus like bars that cover the better part of each passenger window and, in the Miami area, I can only think that they were meant as protection against alligator attacks (maybe that's also really what the police escort was for!).

The lower photo shows the bars in greater detail along with a mechanic in the act of removing the MBRC flag for replacement by a simple 'MTA'.

Photos by 'argenta-image06' and are available at eBay as items numbered 150986107937 and 150986112211 respectively.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

[frankie]

With close examination of those window bars, I notice that the upper portion are held in place with wing nuts while the bottom portion are hinged in place.

I've always wondered what would happen in case of an accident or even worst - a fire. From the exterior it's possible for rescuers to simply unscrew the wing nuts and allow the bars to swing downward in a no fire situation. From the interior, I wondering if it's possible to kick out the bars if enough force is used along the top portion.

Frankie

[Mr. Linsky]

Seen waiting for its next curtain call at its company facility is fleet # 2600 - a 1957 45 passenger GM Coach Model TDH 4512 originally purchased by either the Eastern Massachusetts Street Railway or the Middlesex and Boston Street Railway Companies - both of which then being merged into the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority (MBTA) and carrying the familiar 'T' logo.

The strange array of rear light placements certainly make #2600 an oddity - I've seen stop lights moved above the engine hatches of Old Looks before but I've never seen directional signals set so far from the corners of the engine hatches.

To boot, an aftermarket license plate light, which was normally part of the sunken license plate holder in the lower left engine panel, is hanging at the bottom of the left engine hatch with the plate surface mounted below it (also note that the stop light fixtures within the collars above are originally license plate lights).

What I do like is the personalized license plate prefixed with the company's encircled 'T' logo followed by the fleet number.

#2600 has been preserved by the MBTA.

Photo courtesy of the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority Archive.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

[RailBus63]

[frankie]

While we're on the subject of GM old look tail lights, here's a photographic essay of various types and locations. I'm sure there are more out there. The first one is probably the most common to come off the assembly line.

Frankie

All photos from Flicker for educational purposes.

The most common:



Double horizontals:



Arrow over rounds:



Triangular:



Wide double vertical:



Wide bug eyes:



School bus style add ons (note patches over original openings):



Various positions including a high set of arrows. Usually they're located on the access doors:



Narrow double verticals:




Turn signal over stop:



Offset double verticals:



And then we have this odd one - a triple vertical:

[frankie]

I'm not too sure how to describe this except to say that is may very well be some Research & Development project, but where and by whom is the question. One possibility is somewhere in California as evident by the TDH-4801 old look as the subject to this project. A more plausible possibility may be GM's Pontiac plant, perhaps this is a rig setup for the future 4801. But what puzzles me is the worn look of the front steps.

Note the lack of wheel openings on the driver's side.

If anyone has an answer, us inquiring minds want to know!

Frankie

Photos courtesy of Flicker for educational purpose.

[Mr. Linsky]

frankie,

This is an easy one to answer if you've worked in the business!

The bus is on a sound stage and is sliced into four sections with dollies to move each section around for interior shots (notice the back drop screen in your first photo which simulates background film of what the bus is supposedly passing as it moves along the road).

When I worked on '"A League of Their Own' - a 1992 Columbia Pictures release directed by Penny Marshall and starring Tom Hanks about a traveling female baseball team, I had to find three GM PD-3751's or PD-4151's (ex Greyhound Silversides) or any combination thereof with one going to Culver City and two going to Evansville, Indiana with one of those for road shots (see photo below) and the other sliced into three sections for stage work just as was done with your bus.

The first bus seen below was leased from a private owner in the midwest and the second from a collector in Los Angeles, with the third, which we sliced up, being found as a derelict under a Freeway in San Francisco.

Photo courtesy of IMCDb.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[RailBus63]

[Mr. Linsky]

RailBus63,

Both photos below are of buses used in versions of Hairspray;

The top frame, from the 1988 film is a TDH 5105 said to be in Baltimore livery right down to its fleet number and the bottom frame, from the 2007 remake, is supposedly a TDH 4512 but could very well be a TDH 4801 because the part that is shown would be identical on all GM Old Look paired window transits.

However, I doubt that either of these subjects is that of Frankie's photo merely because it looks very freshly painted for its scenes on the set.

BTW; notice in the top photo that the right side rear view mirror is reversed so that you see what is ahead of the bus - probably done for a shot amidships showing emerging passengers.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

Both photos courtesy of IMCDb

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[MaBSTOA 15]

I counted six wheel nuts on the all yellow "school bus" shown above from the "Hairspray" remake. I believe that was standard for smaller buses such as (and because of the paired windows) TDH-3612 and/or TDH-3714.

Ten wheel nuts was standard on larger heavier buses, i.e. TDH-4509/10/12/15 and TDH-5101/02/03/04/05/06/07/08 plus all the new look models.

[John Roth]

Indeed, 1909 as seen in the movie is in Baltimore MTA livery as it ended is career. It is owned by Charlie Neal whom I believe operated this bus as a driver at one time. It now sports the Baltimore Transit Co mint green with dark green belt line and a white roof. I boarded this bus on Nov 2, 2013 when Charlie and his bus visited the Baltimore Streetcar Museum to observe the 50th anniversary of the end of streetcar service by the BTC. The bus is maintained in beautiful condition and Charlie told me it still had it's original engine.

John